pg

NCRA pg 3 bb archive

[National Casket Retailers Assoc.]

Professional Casket Store Discussion Group ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1705:15 Welcome to this pg 3 archieve of the casket store discussion group

webmaster casketstores@email.com

Message d095c53600A-3537-895+00.htm, number 419, was posted on Tue Sep 7 at

14:58:55 in reply to 98a3c3d500A-3537-473-00.htm Re: chew on this fly-by's

Robin -------------------------------------- On Tue Sep 7, wisdom wrote -------------------------- >The casket store owner is just a wana-be funeral director out to make a quick buck off a grieving family...All trades have these type of lice,...they want to take the make a quick buck and disapear route... What will happen if you are high pressured into buying a casket from a retail outlet and it falls apart? is there a legit manufacturer backing the product up with product liability insurance?

Wisdom:

If you follow any of the recent discussions on this BB, you'll know I offer

perspective from the publicly traded deathcare (and many healthcare) securities "side". I frequent this board (and many others) to increase my knowledge of trends within the industry. Generally, I'm "pro" funeral home chains (e.g. SCI and Stewart) and product manufacturers (e.g. Hillenbrand and York) for pure financial reasons.

With that said, I respectfully must opine that your argument above is out of line. Perhaps you are a f.d. and perceive the retail outlets as a financial threat. That's an OK stance. However, your personal attacks, some

examples and assumptions are without merit. Recognizing the fact that I'm opening myself up to some potential "grief" (*) from your reply, let me comment:

1). You cannot use the example of the skilled trades, as these are providing professional services. The casket stores do not profess training in - or attempt to provide - the services. Only a product is involved. A good example is a Sam's Club. Good price on a refrigerator, but the Sam's Club salesperson isn't qualified (or attempts) to repair the compressor. The local GE dealer can do both, of course, with generally a higher price on the unit. The consumer makes the choice in both examples, and that choice is what makes our country's capitalistic methods successful.

(*) pun intended.

2). The assumption that retailers are "unskilled wanna-be's that are too lazy to get the proper training" presumes that all retail operators had or have a career goal of a skilled/tech profession. While some exceptions arguably exist, I think it more likely the staff of these operations are sales directed and oriented. My uncle made hundred of thousands as a national sales director of an industrial products company. However, he never aspired to engineer the design or service the fittings he sold; rather, he witnessed the demand for the products and took advantage of a ripe market. Again, capitalism is OK.

3). "High pressured" is not the norm in this niche of retail product. Again

with some exceptions, families that visit the retail outlets are frequently

in the "pre-plan" stage, and have the relative luxury of taking their time evaluating a purchase. While I remain "pro-public funeral home" for financial reasons, there is much more propensity for a bereaved family to purchase a higher cost casket (and vault, et al) during the "at-need" period due to the obvious factors of grief and "just letting the f.d. take care of everything so that they can begin to heal"...and so forth. While I personally do not believe the majority of licensed f.d's attempt to "oversell" there remains the fact that the public companies do have sales goals and stockholders to satisfy. The inde's may have not have the scrutiny of a 10K report, but they still have the requisite need to allow a

return on their assets (funeral home, equipment, education, and so on).

4). Re the product itself ("...it falls apart") I cannot comment with any authority. However as a seasoned businessperson, I cannot fathom that Casket Royale or the other manufacturers that supply the retail outlets do not fall within similar - or at least minimal - product specifications as regards quality and workmanship. Otherwise, the company would not remain in

business, as the outlets would boycott the provider and find alternative sources. York, for one, now allows a southern California funeral home to arrange third party deliveries within the state. The "customer" simply uses

the Net or the phone to select a York casket, and it's delivered to the funeral home of his choice in CA. It's not quite retail, as York is "selling" to a f.h., but the real-world picture is clear. The receiving f.d. loses the casket sale. (Note: There is discussion to allow a certain "rebate" or other remuneration to the receiving f.d if they currently had a

York floor). Same comments apply re product liability insurance.

I've gone too long, as usual. However, as long as we continue to defend our

country and the capitalism that we profess to cherish, there is a place for

the retailers. You may not like it - I don't like it when York is $5 share and Hillenbrand under $30 - but I'm fair to when it comes to the people's right to earn a living. I'm less gratious with one-sided and personal ("lice") attacks without reasonable thought behind the topic.\

Robin

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message cf568487WcW-3537-988+00.htm, number 420, was posted on Tue Sep 7 at

16:28:54 in reply to d095c53600A-3537-895+00.htm making a quick buck

savcash a-team@stratos.net -------------------------------------- >On Tue Sep 7, wisdom wrote >-------------------------- >>The casket store owner is

just a wana-be funeral director out to make a quick buck off a grieving family... -----Just added to this saving..... Found out to ship over to India, the casket needs to be contained in a zinic lined hermetically sealed unit. The local funeral director's price for this gem is $900.00 I am getting her one for $500.00 (shipping to her included)

So, add up all those savings,,,,who is out to make a quick buck? "out to make a quick buck off a grieving family." Good post Robin, yes, capitalism is okay. There is room enough for more than one "source." I would never think of calling someone else "lice" just because I lost money to them. They should look inwards and find out why they are losing those customers.

I just want to know too, where are these discounts that COULD be passed onto the customer - from these funeral directors?? --copy-- Small funeral homes allowed to unite to buy cheaper caskets

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Justice Department has approved a plan by family-owned funeral homes to cooperate in obtaining cheaper caskets by joining together to buy them at bulk discounts.

Facing stiff price-cutting from direct retail sellers of caskets and from corporate funeral home chains that have obtained quantity discounts from casket manufacturers, the independent, family-owned funeral homes sought permission from the department's antitrust division to engage in joint purchasing to get similar discounts. This would allow them to compete better for price-sensitive funeral business.---end copy.reporternews.com/1999/biz/brief0115.html (near bottom) P.S. That last savings on the "zigler" unit wholesale is under $300.00 AND the funeral home is going to charge $900.00??? ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message d095c54a00A-3537-1420+00.htm, number 421, was posted on Tue Sep 7 at 23:43:44 in reply to cf568487WcW-3537-988+00.htm Re: making a quick buck

Robin -------------------------------------- Betty: Also with much respect,

you may be missing a point. For good "flow" of discussion, you comment and copy:

I just want to know too, where are these discounts that COULD be passed onto the customer - from these funeral directors?? --copy-- Small funeral homes allowed to unite to buy cheaper caskets

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Justice Department has approved a plan by family-owned funeral homes to cooperate in obtaining cheaper caskets by joining together to buy them at bulk discounts.

Facing stiff price-cutting from direct retail sellers of caskets and from corporate funeral home chains that have obtained quantity discounts from casket manufacturers, the independent, family-owned funeral homes sought permission from the department's antitrust division to engage in joint purchasing to get similar discounts. This would allow them to compete better for price-sensitive funeral business.---end ---------------------------------------------------------------------

The above-referenced group of "homes" is the Order of the Golden Rule, which you and most others that read this board know of, or can easily find their info www.ogr.org (I always liked that URL as it had a simple anagram)...but to my point...

OGR homes are inde's, but subscribe to relatively scrutinous factors including credit checks and a historical background (via actual interviews and/or investigations within the community) review of operations. These homes, with some exceptions (as I frequently cite) are less likely (industry comment) to screw the consumer. They pay annual membership dues exceeding $1000 for the "honor" and the ability to post the OGR sign on the

front door. These (same exception rule) are NOT the bad guys that you should be concerned with. Casket, other product prices, and services fall within a generally accepted range along with the f.h.'s continued monitoring of activities.

What OGR did - and as some powerful group purchasing organization should do

- is to demand better pricing from the "Big 3" (I'm razzing webmaster re Aug 27 post). A preemptory action (probably not needed IMO), but now it's legal . OK with me as a biz person.

Betty, these funeral homes NEED the ability to compete. Your suggestion that the potential discount "could be passed on to the consumer" is way off

base. You and I have never met -- but trade observations and debate somewhat freqently -- so allow me to suggest that, without such commercial concessions, you and the other retailers would surely be in much worse of a

position. Should the consolidators take hold of the market (temporarily impossible - see my previous posts and/or go to the publicly traded stock deathcare boards), they would find a mechanism to negate any impact you have on the market.

The current market is good news for retailing. Acquisitions are at a decade

low. Should the percentage of inde's - now stable - reduce further, it hurts you guys. Simple words....you can NOW compete with the publicly traded big boys. Bankrupt Loewen, and chains like Carriage, Stewart or SCI...are ripe for casket sales. You cannot, IMHO, successfully impact the independents to any degree. The mom and pop "inde" (and the co-op groups among them) will, to your dismay, have the ability to move the profit center from product to service, and you will have little to no effect on their operations.

Hence, and lastly, your copy of news applicable to only the inde's is not (again, IMHO) appropriate to your cause; hurting "them" will hurt "you". Perhaps drive your well-intentioned efforts to the publics, and reap whatever benefits that may exist.

Last, and not least, I reread my post at this late hour regarding my reply to Mr. "Wisdom". For a nasty capitalist that would invest in almost anything profitable, you owe me a beer.

Cheers!

Your pal Robin.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message cf568641WcW-3538-802+00.htm, number 422, was edited on Wed Sep 8 at

13:22:14 and replaces message cf568641WcW-3538-632+00.htm Re^2: making a quick buck

savcash a-team@stratos.net -------------------------------------- >. These (same exception rule) are NOT the bad guys that you should be concerned with. Casket, other product prices, and services fall within a generally accepted range along with the f.h.'s continued monitoring of activities. ----Didn't know it was OGR, however, after having looked up some of the listed f.h. at that site, in my area, from the GPLs that I have collected -some prices still sway up to high end, for basic fees. >Betty, these funeral homes NEED the ability to compete. Your suggestion that the potential discount "could be passed on to the consumer" is way off base. ------If they are competing, sure it may be with the "BIG 3" but it is also

with each other too.

>hurting "them" ---My intent is not to HURT anyone - but maybe to assist in

keeping them on their toes :-> Competition is one of the best things the customer has going for them. > reread my post at this late hour regarding my reply to Mr. "Wisdom". For a nasty capitalist that would invest in almost anything profitable, you owe me a beer.

Domestic or Imported ?

Budweiser Miller Lite Coors Molson

(See, lite isn't listed(on all). You go for the gusto right?) Take care

------------------

Message cf577c6dDSW-3538-1174+00.htm, number 423, was posted on Wed Sep 8 at 19:34:28 in reply to 98a3c3d500A-3537-473-00.htm The Scoop, as reported by:

webmaster casketstores@email.com -------------------------------------- Nothing's As Sure As...

www.stretcher.com/stories/981102b.htm

BTW - if you are a f.d. What is the preferable name of the:

funeral director undertaker mortician funeral provider other? ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message cf56858c00A-3539-1199+00.htm, number 424, was posted on Thu Sep 9 at 19:59:16 in reply to cf577c6dDSW-3538-1174+00.htm Undertaker

Paul -------------------------------------- There is always death and taxes; however death doesn't get worse every year. ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message cf56858cWcW-3539-1408-00.htm, number 425, was posted on Thu Sep 9 at 23:28:56 "the dismal trade,"

savcash a-team@stratos.net

http://www.burialitems.com/ATM.html -------------------------------------- Final Arrangements: A time of reckoning for the region's funeral trade

www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/19990522finalseries2.asp

A series of articles about the whole process, background and future of "the

trade" how they see it. It gives a good amount of speculation into the field, fair amount of praise for the workers and the job at hand and some dark sided comments, over 10-15 pages long. In depth is the correct word here, whew! (copy small part) "And it's not the same industry as it was a generation ago, anyway, either for funeral directors or consumers. There are more competitors for a family's death dollars, more choices in commemorating a loved one's passing, more confusion over when and how to plan death arrangements and whom to plan them with.

Funeral and burial decisions represent the most costly single expense for many families after a house, car and college education, but compared to those others, it's a purchase made with far less time, knowledge, experience and emotional detachment." ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message cf5685e6WcW-3539-1433+00.htm, number 426, was posted on Thu Sep 9 at 23:53:49 in reply to cf56858c00A-3539-1199+00.htm Re: Undertaker

savcash a-team@stratos.net -------------------------------------- Ha! This copy below.....EXCERPT

Excerpted From The Book The Undertaker, Life Studies From The Dismal Trade by Thomas Lynch. Reprinted By Permission

At first I thought it meant he took them under. It was the fifties and I was the child, one of several as it turned out, of an undertaker. This was a fact of greater matter to the kids I hung out with than to me. "What does

he do?" one would ask. "How does he do it?" I said I thought it had to do with holes, with digging holes. And there were bodies involved. Dead bodies. "He takes them under. Get it? Under ground." This would usually shut them up. Still, I wasn't as certain as I tried to sound. And I wondered why it wasn't underputter-you know, for the one who puts them underground. Surely to take them seemed a bit excessive. I mean if they were dead. They wouldn't need the company on the way. Like you would take your sister to the drug store but you would put your bike in the garage. I loved the play of words and the meanings of them.

www.death-dying.com/experts/askthomas/lynchbook.html --end copy

Still, all said and done, the good guys from the group put up with a lot of

grief from the media, public, school kids, competition and even their own. Guess it is really a good thing the field has it's stars and rewards with accomplishing the job that they do and the thanks that they get, for a job well-done. ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message d1770bc1DSW-3540-771+00.htm, number 427, was posted on Fri Sep 10 at 12:51:51 in reply to cf56858cWcW-3539-1408-00.htm Re: "the dismal trade,"

webmaster casketstores@email.com -------------------------------------- Oh yes, gloomy. Dull - not any more. More one sided opinions and studies - forcast is "and to reduce or eliminate the pricing advantage of a "third party casket seller" www.funeralhomebroker.com/newsmarch.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message cfae7f7d00A-3541-1342-00.htm, number 428, was posted on Sat Sep 11 at 22:21:32 Are We Overstepping?

Austin -------------------------------------- I have read with interest posts earlier in the week by someone who saved a family money by selling them a casket for a family member about to be shipped overseas. From that post, I copy: Today, I saved a family nearly a thousand dollars on the casket - a fiberglass sealer. When the woman said six of them were flying to India for her father-in-laws funeral, at the home of a family member there, I asked if she had made arrangements with a funeral home here yet. I

made a few phone calls, and she has now contracted with a f.d. who is an agent of one of the embalming and transporting services that I called. This

is in Maryland - but I could do the same most anywhere. (end of copy) I have been in contact with a couple of legal friends and also have a query into the FTC, but it seems to me that this pushes dangerously close to being a funeral director without a license. The nearest definition to funeral director I have found is one who provides death related services to

a family for a profit. Now I assume that this poster did not give the casket away, as in later posts it talks of making a buck - so it seems to me that the fine line of casket retailer and funeral director has been pushed. The best answer, of course, could probably come from the family. Maybe the FTC will want to ask them it they feel they received more than just product from this retailer. By the way, I do hope the embalming service does a better job on the prep than some that I (and many other directors I'm sure) have used or the credibility that the poster thinks has

been fostered will be lost amongst the million dollar lawsuit that their store will be included in - after all, she is the one who directed the family to them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message 98a3c3cf00A-3542-741+00.htm, number 429, was posted on Sun Sep 12 at 12:21:36 in reply to cfae7f7d00A-3541-1342-00.htm Re: Are We Overstepping?

Guest -------------------------------------- On Sat Sep 11, Austin wrote --------------------------- >I have read with interest posts earlier in the

week by someone who saved a family money by selling them a casket for a family member about to be shipped overseas.

Austin, I too read that post. Anyone with any experience in the intercontinental shipping of human remains would have serious questions about the services that Savcash has claimed to contract for this family. Although I beleive she thinks she is really helping, I have warned her in the past about faulty advice and she refuses to listen. First off, I have never had occasion to arrange a ship-out to India, but I have, on many accasions arranged ship-outs to Europe and the Mediterranean. It has been my experience that in some countries, $595 doesn't even cover the "fees" (bribes) that must be paid to all the low-level foreign officals before they will even let the remains leave their airport's unloading dock. Also, all paperwork and documentation must be "legalized" at the Indian Embassy, or at one of the four Indian Consular offices located in the continental US. The family is lucky the death happened in Maryland, because the shipping funeral director will only have to charge them for a trip to Washington DC to have this service performed. This will sometimes take more

than one trip if all the papers are not in order, or if the Vice-Consul doesn't "like the looks" of a signature or document. Also, the sealed fiberglass casket does not fit the regulations of the Indian government, or

the Pan-American Sanitary Conference regulations, which India adopted in 1966. I have gotten away with using steel "sealer" caskets in some countries, but I wouldn't risk a fiberglass unit unless I got permission from the Vice-Consul prior to shipping. Additionally, many foreign countries do not allow non-biodegradable burial containers because graves are re-used after a certain period of time (Germany and France for example), and the family will be responsible for the disposal of the casket, in addition to the cost of purchasing a new biodegradable casket or

coffin in the foreign country. If I remember correctly, the vast majority of Indian people are cremated, and their cremains are scattered in the Ganges River. So, Savcash should be sure to warn this family that they will

be responsible for disposing of her casket once they get to India. I have no problem with someone who can do something cheaper, but it is also very important that it is done RIGHT. Particularly when you are dealing with foreign countries, and their various regulations and customs. If this shipping funeral director will do a ship-out to India, or any other overseas location for $595, AND it is DONE RIGHT...I want his name! That is

a FANTASTIC PRICE, and he can do ALL my overseas shipping.

ChuckG (A copy of this post will be kept by its author.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message cf568707WcW-3542-1361+00.htm, number 430, was edited on Sun Sep 12 at 22:40:59 and replaces message cf568707WcW-3542-1341+00.htm in reply to "are we miffed?" professional shopper

savcash a-team@stratos.net -------------------------------------- :but it seems to me that this pushes dangerously close to being a funeral director without a license. The nearest definition to funeral director I have found is one who provides death related services to a family for a profit. ------

I read your post with amusement, even telling my husband. Here is what I have found on the web, as job of the funeral director--- A funeral director

is responsible for meeting with the family and making the funeral arrangements and arranging for the minister ,pallbearers, and anyone who will be involved in the funeral. Also his is to file out and file all necessary forms such as the death cert. transport permit, social security, and V A. (shipping, if any) And then he must direct the funeral. A mortician is the one who is responsible for preparing the body. But today in most firms they are one in the same. So they do everything from the removal to the dispostion.

See the link below for another detailed job discription OCCUPATION TITLE:

Funeral Director

DESCRIPTION: badger.state.wi.us/agencies/drl/Regulation/html/dod278.html or

Jobquest ~ Funeral Directors www.jobquest.com/ooh1996/ooh/ooh01101.htm

You see, the first phone call I made, was to find a a funeral director for the lady - one of their agents in that area. I didn't do any of the "arrangements (other than the product)" nor hold myself out to be anything other than a professional shopper & a burial items supplier for her needs. (I didn't even say I was a funeral consultant, but I know there are a lot of them out there too) **The funeral director that they contracted with did

ALL of the required funeral director activities!

You are right about a few things though. I didn't do work or product for her gratutous and there is a chance that I can be sued for a referral going

bad. But you know, I figure that THE ABOVE chance is far greater than the other ones** that seems to be pronounced very often and very loudly, that has not stopped the flow of buyers - Which is of course, ARE THEIR only intents - due to it being totally false from where I read, and I read a lot!! So I sure hope this one of giving referrals, doesn't stop the flow of

good deeds. (**You know, about the bottom falling out,etc) "Justice will only be achieved when those who are not injured by crime feel as indignant as those who are." -- King Solomon www.jfa.net/ I happen to think it is a crime to 1) charge someone over $1,300 for 5 or 6 hrs work and services no product whatsoever 2) be part of a group that insists on keeping competition out by fear of boycott from the suppliers, if they sell wholesale to casket stores.

I put myself in her shoes, and she is grateful! She had already made a few calls and seen the outragious fees she was up against. For no funeral services here, she was going to be charged nearly as much! --------------------------------------------

savcash a-team@stratos.net

Good people in trusting places get praise too ;-) http://www.newsday.com/jet/box0709.htm www.newsday.com/jet/box0709.htm

Message cf5687afP5m-3620-1393-00.htm, number 5, was posted on Mon Nov 29 at 23:13:36

Praise in my email

George V.

<A HREF="mailto:gvic@yahoo.com">gvic@yahoo.com</A>

"What a relief it is to see quality caskets at discounted prices. This overpriced industry needed inovators like you years ago. Please email a list of your prices and shipping costs to Canada" Sometimes you don't even need to look for it and it comes your way. I am proud of what I do - when people can make that their goal, all of the rest falls into place.

Message cf568495WcW-3621-398+00.htm, number 6, was posted on Tue Nov 30 at 06:38:49

in reply to ce9cf221RN9-3620-593-00.htm

still checking.....

savcash

<A HREF="mailto:a-team@stratos.net">a-team@stratos.net</A>

>Also, there are actually four conglomerates: Service Corporation, Stewart Enterprises, >Loewen and Carriage Services.>Robin----This link thinks three: http://www.ragingbull.com/articles/hight/04-19-99.html www.ragingbull.com/articles/hight/04-19-99.html Somebody must have been counted down and out. Don't you think they are too? And.. "What's wrong with this picture?" (copy)Story last updated at 11:41 a.m. on Thursday, June 17, 1999Open casket pics worth many angry words By Abigail Van Buren DEAR ABBY: Less than two weeks ago, I lost a friend of

more than 40 years. He had been in poor health for the better part of two years and succumbed to the many complications of emphysema. He left a wife and two adult children.The evening before the funeral, there was a viewing that was attended by many friends and relatives. At that time, his sister told the widow she would like to take some pictures of the floral arrangements, some of which were sent by relatives in the Midwest. She wished to send these relatives some pictures. She was given permission, as long as she took only snapshots of the flowers, and not the open casket. The sister-in-law agreed to abide by this.The grieving widow had no sooner left the room than the deceased's sister proceeded to take snapshots

of her brother in the open casket! At the graveside service the next morning, she also took snapshots of the people attending the service, and even went so far as to take pictures of the casket as it was being lowered into the ground. When the widow learned of it later, she was furious.She called her sister-in-law the following day and expressed shock and disappointment that anyone would commit such a morbid, insensitive and uncaring act. The sister-in-law rationalized that the pictures were her own personal memento of her brother -- since he looked so

good, better than she had seen him look in a long time. The widow demanded the exposed roll of film, for which she offered to reimburse her sister-in-law, but was refused.Abby, what do you think of this? Should the sister-in-law have taken those pictures? -- ONE WHO HAS LOST A FRIENDDEAR ONE WHO HAS LOST A FRIEND: The sister-in-law was wrong to promise the widow she would refrain from photographing the open casket and then going back on her word. However, everyone grieves in his or her own way -- and if a sibling would find comfort in having pictures of her brother in his coffin, who am I to argue? It's not something I would want to revisit; however, I'm sure this situation isn't a first. What is interesting is her statement that her brother's corpse looked better than he did when he was still alive.n n n

Message ce9cf221RN9-3621-739+00.htm, number 7, was posted on Tue Nov 30 at 12:19:15

in reply to cf568495WcW-3621-398+00.htm

Re: still checking.....

robin

jtbod1@netscape.net

>----This link thinks three: href="http://www.ragingbull.com/articles/hight/04-19-99.html">www.ragingbull.com/articles/hight/04-19-99.html</A> >Somebody

must have been counted down and out. Don't you think they are too? No; your Raging Bull link simply lists three publicly traded companies. The last, Hillenbrand, has nothing to do with funeral services (e.g. funeral homes or cemeteries)...it is a supplier of Batesville Caskets, Hill-Rom hospital beds and other medical equipment, and

Forethought Insurance Services. Re "who is out", Loewen is now protected

by federal bankruptcy laws. The other three I listed in the above post (Service, Stewart and Carriage) may have current low stock prices, but they

are, in order, the number 1, 3 and 4 in the U.S. as regards funeral home and cemetery properties. They represent about 18-20% of the locations, but "do" almost 25% of the services. So, they are definitely not "out", but a huge force and factor in the DCI. Acquisitions are now at a 10 year low, due to overpriced-previous-acquisitions and high debt loads. So, current independent operations will remain steady in number. The "Big 4" (Loewen will NOT go under, it will reorganize) are now concentrating on efficient and profitable operations (versus growth by simply purchasing former independent properties), and will most likely remain very strong in the industry for decades to come.

Message cf56864eWcW-3621-1091-00.htm, number 8, was posted on Tue Nov 30 at 18:11:41

if you retail in Calif, FTC news (bottom)

savcash

a-team@stratos.net

Seen this prior, but thought I'd post this Ca. pc here so many can see it too. http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/97-98/bill/asm/ab_1701-1750/ab_1709_bill_19980813_chaptered.html

Oklahoma should have this type of ruling on their books - instead of trying to force casket stores out of business for "health reasons"link to article about c.s. and some s t r e c h e d words by "others" But a few good ones too :-) www.gazette.com/archive/99-09-12/daily/biz2.html pre-need - and people clearly do need protected. My state of Ohio has just added third party retailers (casket store owners) to be included in

those that need to "trust" funds from a sale of a casket. But the article below, does not mention casket stores. In either event, make sure your "sale" or purchase, is done by the books. (copy) A TISKET, A TASKET, A NON-EXISTENT CASKET 'Tis still the season for blatant rip-offs. The latest con involves pre-paid funeral contracts. An estimated 25,000 Michigan consumers (most of them senior citizens) have been swindled

in amounts exceeding two million dollars. Most funeral homes and cemeteries abide by the law, which requires sellers of such services to deposit all money received in an interest bearing escrow account. Those few

who are trying to avoid the escrow requirements will often give the purchaser some form of receipt. This usually takes the form of a warehouse ticket that promises delivery of the casket when the person dies. The sellers claim that because a receipt was issued, the consumer has "taken delivery" of the casket so it is no longer a pre-paid item and is no longer subject to the escrow requirements of the law. Some of these sellers

even go so far as to claim the caskets were purchased and are stored in a warehouse. However, an audit by the Michigan Department of Consumer and

Industry Services (CIS) which regulates and licenses funeral homes and cemeteries, found that the vast majority of sites examined had less than 45% of the caskets they had supposedly warehoused. Therefore, the sellers had neither escrowed the money nor purchased and warehoused caskets for the

majority of the contracts they had sold. Furthermore, Michigan State Policy prevents the warehouse from being an agent of the seller, which is clearly the case in these situations. If you suspect that you have been victim of this scheme, please contact the Michigan Funeral Director Association at 1-800-937-6332. They can send you information on how to avoid this scam. You can also contact the Michigan Department of Consumer and Industry Services (CIS) at 517-335-1688. If you have any further questions, feel free to contact our office. Submitted By Christopher S.

Alexander Staff Attorney (end copy) And the link to the elec/funeral industry news www.tiac.net/users/mcdfh/EFSA_Weekly_Update.html FTC is supposed to have on their site (next wk or so) all the minutes of the public meeting on the funeral review. I'll link it here when I see it.

Message cdbcc7cfN7Z-3621-1148-00.htm, number 9, was posted on Tue Nov 30 at 19:08:30

Does anyone know of a casket outlet in Erie, PA.

Fred Johnson

<A HREF="mailto:fredj@hotmail.com">fredj@hotmail.com</A>

Or the nearest one?Thanks

Message d1770bcbDSW-3622-441+00.htm, number 11, was posted on Wed Dec 1 at 07:21:12

in reply to cdbcc7cfN7Z-3621-1148-00.htm

Re: Does anyone know of a casket outlet in Erie, PA.

webmaster

<A HREF="mailto:casketstores@email.com">casketstores@email.com</A>

You can find information on the page:<A href="http://www.casketstores.com/Directory.htm#Pennsylvania">www.casketstores.com/Directory.htm#Pennsylvania</A> Best

Regards, Rob

Message ce9cf221RN9-3622-892-00.htm, number 12, was posted on Wed Dec 1 at 14:52:51

Anyone Familiar with FuneralMerchandise.com?

robin

jtbod1@;netscape.net

The URL is <A href="http://www.funeralmerchandise.com">www.funeralmerchandise.com</A>. The advertise discounted merchandise(caskets, urns, memorials) and indicate

they have a network of funeral directors to offer "discounted" services throughout the U.S. I called them, and they said they can sell Batesville, York & Aurora products. Hence, I must presume they are funeral directors getting into the retail market. In any case, anyone ever heard

of them or familiar with their operations?Thanks!Robin

Message ce9cf221RN9-3622-913+00.htm, number 13, was posted on Wed Dec 1 at 15:13:00

in reply to ce9cf221RN9-3622-892-00.htm

Re: Anyone Familiar with FuneralMerchandise.com?

robin

<A HREF="mailto:jtbod1@netscape.net">jtbod1@netscape.net</A>

Found It. It's a Casket Outlet 2320 J St Fl 1, Sacramento, CA 95816-4714 Phone: (916)498-6855 You don't have it listed in your directory (but there are other Casket Outlets in your CA directory).In any case, they appear to have Batesville, et al, as they also are f.d's. Comments?

Message cf577c9cDSW-3622-1111-00.htm, number 9, was posted on Wed Dec 1 at 18:31:39

reposts from yesterday and today here

webmaster

<A HREF="mailto:casketstores@email.com">casketstores@email.com</A>

Re: What happened? webmaster <casketstores@email> It will be up

tomorrow as a working link. And thanks for the heads up on the correction for the Laws page.Seems there is a bored clown trying to do damage. Not successful though. Such a waste of talent. Cleaned up afterwards, that's all. Message cf5685a0WcW-3620-1101-00.htm, number 4, was

posted on Mon Nov 29 at 18:21:08 repost of Praise link for f.d. work

savcash a-team@stratos> Good people in trusting places get praise too ;-) <A href="http://www.newsday.com/jet/box0709.htm">www.newsday.com/jet/box0709.htm</A>

Message cf5687afP5m-3620-1393-00.htm, number 5, was posted on Mon Nov 29 at 23:13:36 Praise in my email George V. <A gvic@yahoo.com "What a relief it is to see quality caskets at discounted

prices. This overpriced industry needed inovators like you years ago. Please email a list of your prices and shipping costs to Canada" Sometimes you don't even need to look for it and it comes your way. I am proud of what I do - when people can make that their goal, all of the rest falls into place. Message cf568495WcW-3621-398+00.htm,

number 6, was posted on Tue Nov 30 at 06:38:49 in reply to ce9cf221RN9-3620-593-00.htm still checking..... savcash <a-team@stratos> >Also, there are actually four conglomerates: Service Corporation, Stewart Enterprises, >Loewen and Carriage Services.>Robin----This link thinks three: <A href="http://www.ragingbull.com/articles/hight/04-19-99.html">www.ragingbull.com/articles/hight/04-19-99.html</A> Somebody

must have been counted down and out. Don't you think they are too? And..

"What's wrong with this picture?" (copy)Story last updated at 11:41 a.m.

on Thursday, June 17, 1999Open casket pics worth many angry words By Abigail Van Buren DEAR ABBY: Less than two weeks ago, I lost a friend of more than 40 years. He had been in poor health for the better part of two years and succumbed to the many complications of emphysema. He left a wife and two adult children.The evening before the funeral, there was a viewing that was attended by many friends and relatives. At that time, his sister told the widow she would like to

take some pictures of the floral arrangements, some of which were sent by relatives in the Midwest. She wished to send these relatives some pictures. She was given permission, as long as she took only snapshots of the flowers, and not the open casket. The sister-in-law agreed to abide by this.The grieving widow had no sooner left the room than the deceased's sister proceeded to take snapshots of her brother in the open

casket! At the graveside service the next morning, she also took snapshots of the people attending the service, and even went so far

as to take pictures of the casket as it was being lowered into the ground. When the widow learned of it later, she was furious.She called her sister-in-law the following day and expressed shock and disappointment that anyone would commit such a morbid, insensitive and uncaring act. The sister-in-law rationalized that the pictures were her own personal memento of her brother -- since he looked so good, better than she had seen him look in a long time. The widow demanded the exposed roll of film, for which she offered to reimburse her sister-in-law, but was refused.Abby, what do you think of this? Should the sister-in-law have taken those pictures? -- ONE WHO HAS LOST A FRIENDDEAR ONE WHO HAS LOST A FRIEND: The sister-in-law was wrong to promise the widow she would refrain from photographing the open casket and then going back on her word. However, everyone grieves in his or her

own way -- and if a sibling would find comfort in having pictures of her

brother in his coffin, who am I to argue? It's not something I would want to revisit; however, I'm sure this situation isn't a first. What is interesting is her statement that her brother's corpse looked better than he did when he was still alive.n n n Message ce9cf221RN9-3621-739+00.htm, number 7, was posted on Tue Nov 30 at 12:19:15in reply to cf568495WcW-3621-398+00.htm Re: still checking..... robin <A href="mailto:jtbod1@netscape.net">jtbod1@netscape.net</A> >----This link thinks three: href="http://www.ragingbull.com/articles/hight/04-19-99.html">www.ragingbull.com/articles/hight/04-19-99.html >Somebody

must have been counted down and out. Don't you think they are too? No; your Raging Bull link simply lists three publicly traded companies. The last, Hillenbrand, has nothing to do with funeral services (e.g. funeral homes or cemeteries)...it is a supplier of Batesville Caskets, Hill-Rom hospital beds and other medical equipment, and Forethought Insurance Services. Re "who is out", Loewen is now protected by federal bankruptcy laws. The other three I listed in the above post (Service, Stewart and Carriage) may have current low stock prices, but they are, in order, the number 1, 3 and 4 in the U.S. as regards funeral home and cemetery properties. They represent about 18-20% of the locations, but "do" almost 25% of the services. So, they are definitely not "out", but a huge force and factor in the DCI. Acquisitions are now at a 10 year low, due to overpriced-previous-acquisitions and high debt loads. So, current independent operations will remain steady in number. The "Big 4" (Loewen

will NOT go under, it will reorganize) are now concentrating on efficient and profitable operations (versus growth by simply purchasing former independent properties), and will most likely remain very strong in the industry for decades to come. Message cf56864eWcW-3621-1091-00.htm, number 8, was posted on Tue Nov 30 at 18:11:41 if you retail in Calif, FTC news (bottom) savcash <A href="mailto:a-team@stratos.net">a-team@stratos.net</A> Seen this prior, but thought I'd post this Ca. pc here so many can see it too. www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/97-98/bill/asm/ab_1701-1750/ab_1709_bill_19980813_chaptered.htmlOklahoma

should have this type of ruling on their books - instead of trying to force

casket stores out of business for "health reasons"link to article about c.s. and some s t r e c h e d words by "others" But a few good ones too ;-) www.gazette.com/archive/99-09-12/daily/biz2.htmlpre-need

- and people clearly do need protected. My state of Ohio has just added

third party retailers (casket store owners) to be included in those that

need to "trust" funds from a sale of a casket. But the article below, does not mention casket stores. In either event, make sure your "sale" or purchase, is done by the books. (copy) A TISKET, A TASKET, A NON-EXISTENT CASKET 'Tis still the season for blatant rip-offs. The latest con involves pre-paid funeral contracts. An estimated 25,000 Michigan consumers (most of them senior citizens) have been swindled in amounts exceeding two million dollars. Most funeral homes and cemeteries

abide by the law, which requires sellers of such services to deposit all

money received in an interest bearing escrow account. Those few who are trying to avoid the escrow requirements will often give the purchaser some form of receipt. This usually takes the form of a warehouse ticket that promises delivery of the casket when the person dies. The sellers claim that because a receipt was issued, the consumer has "taken delivery" of the casket so it is no longer a pre-paid item and is no longer subject to the escrow requirements of the law. Some of these sellers even go so

far as to claim the caskets were purchased and are stored in a warehouse. However, an audit by the Michigan Department of Consumer and Industry Services (CIS) which regulates and licenses funeral homes and cemeteries, found that the vast majority of sites examined had less than

45% of the caskets they had supposedly warehoused. Therefore, the sellers had neither escrowed the money nor purchased and warehoused caskets for the majority of the contracts they had sold. Furthermore, Michigan State Policy prevents the warehouse from being an

agent of the seller, which is clearly the case in these situations. If you suspect that you have been victim of this scheme, please contact the

Michigan Funeral Director Association at 1-800-937-6332. They can send you information on how to avoid this scam. You can also contact the Michigan Department of Consumer and Industry Services (CIS) at 517-335-1688. If you have any further questions, feel free to contact our office. Submitted By Christopher S. Alexander Staff Attorney (end copy) And the link to the elec/funeral industry news www.tiac.net/users/mcdfh/EFSA_Weekly_Update.htmlFTC is supposed to have on their site (next wk or so) all the minutes of the public meeting on the funeral review. I'll link it here when I see it. Message cdbcc7cfN7Z-3621-1148-00.htm, number 9, was posted on Tue Nov 30 at 19:08:30Does anyone know of a casket outlet in Erie, PA. Fred Johnson <A href="mailto:fredj@hotmail.com">fredj@hotmail.com</A>

Or the nearest one?Thanks Message d1770bcbDSW-3622-441+00.htm, number 11, was posted on Wed Dec 1 at 07:21:12 in reply to cdbcc7cfN7Z-3621-1148-00.htm Re: Does anyone know of a casket outlet in

Erie, PA. webmaster <A href="mailto:casketstores@email.com">casketstores@email.com</A> You can find information on the page:www.casketstores.com/Directory.htm#Pennsylvania Best Regards, Rob Message ce9cf221RN9-3622-892-00.htm, number 12, was posted on Wed Dec 1 at 14:52:51 Anyone Familiar with FuneralMerchandise.com? robin <A jtbod1@netscape.net The URL is www.funeralmerchandise.com. The advertise discounted merchandise(caskets, urns, memorials) and indicate they have a network of funeral directors to offer "discounted" services throughout the U.S. I called them, and they said they can sell Batesville, York & Aurora products. Hence, I must presume they are funeral directors getting into the retail market. In any case, anyone ever heard of them or familiar with their operations?Thanks!Robin Message ce9cf221RN9-3622-913+00.htm, number 13, was posted on Wed Dec 1 at 15:13:00in reply to ce9cf221RN9-3622-892-00.htm Re: Anyone Familiar with FuneralMerchandise.com? robin <A href="mailto:jtbod1@netscape.net">jtbod1@netscape.net</A> Found It. It's

a Casket Outlet 2320 J St Fl 1, Sacramento, CA 95816-4714 Phone: (916)498-6855 You don't have it listed in your directory (but there are other Casket Outlets in your CA directory).In any case, they appear to have Batesville, et al, as they also are f.d's. Comments?

Message cf577c9cDSW-3622-1204-00.htm, number 10, was posted on Wed Dec 1 at 20:08:50

Anyone Familiar with FuneralMerchandise.com?

<A HREF="mailto:casketstores@email.com">casketstores@email.com</A>

Hello Robin: I can't say as if I have ever heard of it. When I

visited the site,and saw the "savings of -% off the mortuary" it didn't strike me as a funeral director's site. And the fact that they may get Batesville, most all of the c.s. can too. They just go through a f/d to

do so.But, it was a nice site, and Thanks for the link. Saving the public is a praise that we hear every day and the more the better.

Message cf577c9cDSW-3622-1223-00.htm, number 11, was posted on Wed Dec 1 at 20:23:46

Reposts from yesterday and today

has just added third party retailers (casket store owners) to be included in those that need to "trust" funds from a sale of a casket. But the article below, does not mention casket stores. In either

event, make sure your "sale" or purchase, is done by the books. (copy) A TISKET, A TASKET, A NON-EXISTENT CASKET 'Tis still the season for blatant rip-offs. The latest con involves pre-paid funeral contracts. An estimated 25,000 Michigan consumers (most of them senior citizens) have been swindled in amounts exceeding two million dollars. Most funeral homes and cemeteries abide by the law, which requires sellers of such services to deposit all money received in an interest bearing escrow account. Those few who are trying to avoid the escrow requirements will often give the purchaser some form of receipt. This usually takes the form of a warehouse ticket that promises delivery of

the casket when the person dies. The sellers claim that because a receipt was issued, the consumer has "taken delivery" of the casket so it is no longer a pre-paid item and is no longer subject to the escrow requirements of the law. Some of these sellers even go so far as to claim the caskets were purchased and are stored in a warehouse. However, an audit by the Michigan Department of Consumer and Industry Services (CIS) which regulates and licenses funeral homes and cemeteries, found that the vast majority of sites examined had less than

agent of the seller, which is clearly the case in these situations. If you suspect that you have been victim of this scheme, please contact the

Message cf577c51WcW-3623-545-00.htm, number 12, was posted on Thu Dec 2 at 09:04:51

savcash

mailto:a-team@stratos.net

Thank you webmaster for keeping this board clean. There has been some "begger of attention" trying to mess with me. He can't post here now, so he is not happy. But I am, thanks a ton! He even mailed

me something with an atachment - but I never opened it. He's a waste of my time and is going downhill fast.(BTW) Someone had said they thought Rob,

my son lived with us. No he is over an hour away, with his great wife & our

4 grandsons.Why is it that we rejoice at birth and grieve at a funeral? It is because we are not the person involved. --- Mark

Twain

Message cf568696WcW-3623-1285-00.htm, number 13, was posted on Thu Dec 2 at 21:25:00

funeral customs

savcash

<A HREF="mailto:a-team@stratos.net">a-team@stratos.net</A>

Kind of an interesting page.... http://freepages.pavilion.net/users/pski/funeral.htm (slow week, lots to share ;-)

Message cf56879cDSW-3625-867-00.htm, number 17, was posted on Sat Dec 4 at 14:28:11

Work in progress

webmaster

<A HREF="mailto:casketstores@email.com">casketstores@email.com</A>

As some of you might have guessed, the NCRA site was HACKED. The proper authorities have been notified. It is "rather like someone breaking into your home" and very illegal. Rest assured, steps have been taken to prevent this again -& to catch the one (s?) responsible. If anyone has any information that may lead to the arrest and conviction of that party, please email the webmaster (personal reward paid of $500.00 if convicted and will request NCRA match this). This is serious business and will not be

tolerated. Also, the news network is being alerted - seems that someone is bragging about this on another bb. It is not fun and games, nor is this break-in of the site the only thing that is a concern.If the HACKER is reading, cease ALL of these actions. You are already in enough hot water.

Message cf5685e6WcW-3626-26+00.htm, number 18, was posted on Sun Dec 5 at 00:26:59

in reply to cf56879cDSW-3625-867-00.htm

Re: Work in progress

savcash

<A HREF="mailto:a-team@stratos.net">a-team@stratos.net</A>

Well, the bb ( as seen by these empty message files) had some files deleted. So, someone got into the server and "cleaned" some posts. The chat site, also - seem to be the only areas that were affected- and the correct word use here is "cracker or cracked" My guess is something good should come out of all this hard work to keep this site abuse free. http://www.idg.net/go.cgi?id=171318

Message 3f1536e0DSW-3626-790+00.htm, number 19, was posted on Sun Dec 5 at 13:10:08

in reply to cf56879cDSW-3625-867-00.htm

Punishment outlined for "hackers/ cracker"

webmaster

<A HREF="mailto:casketstores@email.com">casketstores@email.com</A>

http://www.apbnews.com/newscenter/internetcrime/1999/12/02/nevadahack1202_01.html

>More details later. If you view that whole site, it is very informative

also. This illegal activity seems to be happening quite a bit all over, for

fun and profit?? To discredit also, what a shame!

Message d1770bc1WcW-3628-563-00.htm, number 20, was posted on Tue Dec 7 at 09:25:14

AFDA Code of Ethics

savcash

<A HREF="mailto:a-team@stratos.net">a-team@stratos.net</A>

(copy of a few pledges) We abide by the Australian Funeral Directors

code of ethics AFDA Code of Ethics Members of the Australian Funeral Directors Association abide by the following code of

ethics: To maintain in all matters the highest standards of business, professional and personal conduct. To respect in all circumstances the confidentiality and trust placed in us by our clients

and members of the public To ensure that staff is qualified and competent To ensure that facilities are adequate for all services rendered to the community. To provide information concerning the range of services available, the prices of these services and the functions and responsibilities accepted on behalf of our clients To

give written estimate of all funeral charges and disbursements to be made on the clients behalf at the time of taking instructions, or as soon as is practicable To respect the personal choice of clients and have regard for their diversity of beliefs in religious and cultural practices To ensure that all advertising is in good taste and directed to informing the public. To be thoroughly conversant with the laws of the land as they apply to funeral services and allied industries and

professions To provide a client's advisory service with conciliation and arbitration arrangements to help resolve any disputes which arise between members and their clients. http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jacquib/index.htm An informative site! And from that site, check into the "lighter note page,

on growing old - of course you know this doesn't apply to you or me" http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jacquib/fun.htm

http://nsm.org/code.htm National Selected Mortician's PledgeDidn't find one on the NFDA site, this was closest to it: http://www.nfda.org/pubs/dec98/ethics.htmlDetailed fully, the Funeral code of ethics (see link at bottome to check any occupations) http://csep.iit.edu/codes/coe/Funeral_Ethics_Association.html (might print out for bedside reading!) ("May be reported" is a HUGE part of the problems. If there is a lowlife pastor or doctor, it is not part of the ethics to keep it a secret-to NOT speak ill or repeat/ report to just anyone. Surley not the newspaper or t.v.!)http://csep.iit.edu/codes/coe/Okalhoma_Code. Okalhoma's link. I find it interesting and it is great to see such detail and thought for the public. What is this about: "AS FUNERAL DIRECTORS, we herewith fully acknowledge our individual and collective obligations to the public, especially to those we serve, and our mutual responsibilities for the proper welfare of the funeral service profession." Is this (really) why it is more than an "old boys network?" I like Australian's better, it seems to gear more towards

the public's best interests. And they fair just fine, without "selected"

parts in that code.

Message cdbcc431z5a-3628-1282-00.htm, number 21, was posted on Tue Dec 7 at 21:22:34

FUNERAL RULE

competitive caskets inc.

jjjgjs@aol.com

ANY NEWS YET???????

Message cf568542DSW-3629-532+00.htm, number 22, was posted on Wed Dec 8 at 08:52:43

in reply to cdbcc431z5a-3628-1282-00.htm

Re: FUNERAL RULE

webmaster

<A HREF="mailto:casketstores@email.com">casketstores@email.com</A>

On Tue Dec 7, competitive caskets inc. wrote -------------------------------------------- >ANY NEWS YET???????Hi George:None yet. Their 10 days is up also, it is not yet

posted on their site. http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1999/9911/funeralrule.htm#Agenda is the latest about this much awaited subject. And many others are watching the FTC too http://www.foxnews.com/js_index.sml?content=/news/wires2/1021/n_ap_1021_150.sml

And industry news:"Comments by Chairman of Special Committee on Aging The National Funeral Directors Association has charged that the chairman of the Special Committee on Aging made a number of factual errors when he released the" http://www.kates-boylston.com/hotnews.html

Message cf568542P5m-3629-567+00.htm, number 23, was posted on Wed Dec 8 at 09:27:26

in reply to d1770bc1WcW-3628-563-00.htm

Ethics

George V.

gvic@yahoo.com

Site review by Nomis Publications of FAMSA web site: http://www.yelobk.com/reviews/ Can an industry that is selling primairly to funeral directors and their

suppliers, give a A+ to someone 'outside'?

Message cf568542WcW-3629-630-00.htm, number 24, was posted on Wed Dec 8 at 10:30:46

mini-lesson from

savcash a-team@stratos.net

the National Institute for Consumer Education http://www.emich.edu/public/coe/nice/fun.html included are worksheets for comparing funeral home costs http://www.emich.edu/public/coe/nice/work1.html So people can get this "shopping" down pat! Assistance is coming in from all sides. (check out other links) FUNERAL HOME COMPARISION WORK SHEET - what a nice site! Because GPL are written so differently, it is sometime hard for laypeople to read. This would clear things up. I will link to this from my site!

Message cf577c92DSW-3631-1025+00.htm, number 25, was

edited on Fri Dec 10 at 17:39:05

"Hot caskets = illegal activity, info please"

webmaster

casketstores@email.com

A major nationwide manufacturer has requested assistance in dealing with a problem concerning distribution of some of their caskets. They are looking for any information - to be used to assist in prosecution of a Mr. D. S. Their former employee (terminated in April 99) has been charged with the criminal felony offense of theft, for exerting unauthorized control over property that was not his. This casket manufacturer is requesting any information in tracking down any sales made from their warehouse, located in Indiana - for money paid to a D.S. If you had contact

with a D.S. as a salesman, for the purchase of any metal caskets (email this webmaster for full name and details). It appears that the company is missing money from the sale of several hundred caskets, this D.S. did not turn over the cash. Please, please email. The Indiana State Police are looking for further details also.If any retailers have any information, please let us know. We know, as well as the company, that our business is not conducted illegally in any form. The contacted buyer would not have had

any idea that something was "hot", especially from a know facility. A quote

from the company: "Be assured that we do not mean to infer any possible wrongdoing on your behalf, we are only seeking to trace additional

evidence of this man's misconduct. Thank you for your understanding and assistance."There is a toll free number and other information, please email here if you think you might have any details that they can use

to get this crook more of what he deserves. This information will be going out in an email to members also, shortly.

[ This message was edited on Fri Dec 10 by the author ]

Message cf5686e9WcW-3631-1138-00.htm, number 26, was posted on Fri Dec 10 at 18:58:25

down to the wire.....

savcash

<A HREF="mailto:a-team@stratos.net">a-team@stratos.net</A>

Three Million Americans Would Rather Shop for a Burial Plot Than Prepare Their Home PCs for Y2K<A href="http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/991208/ut_iomega__1.html">biz.yahoo.com/prnews/991208/ut_iomega__1.html</A>True

news about the water & sanitary y2k glitches.Less than Half of Water Systems May Be Prepared for Y2K; Government Panels Misinterpreted Key Information, Says Report <A href="http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/991210/dc_center__1.html">biz.yahoo.com/prnews/991210/dc_center__1.html</A>What

are people buying??? <A href="http://www.seattle-pi.com/local/year10.shtml">www.seattle-pi.com/local/year10.shtml</A> (besides

water, food...guns??) "Compare it to getting ready for an earthquake" <A

href="http://www.chicago.tribune.com/version1/article/0,1575,SAV-9912090178,00.html">www.chicago.tribune.com/version1/article/0,1575,SAV-9912090178,00.html</A>We

were at Granger supply today, they purchased a $30,000 generator and had wired all their firm's computor and elec. to it, just in case. They employ 300 - and have had a talk with them all....get ready -just in case! Better to be ready, and not need it, than not! The Red Cross shelter won't hold everyone who "waits!" So, if you don't act, do you know the way there? (Just in case.....)But it has to be alot eaiser to be a good Boy Scout or Girl Scout!'Be Prepared': It's Not Just for Boy Scouts DETAILS DETAILS <A href="http://www.patriarch.com/remnant21.html">www.patriarch.com/remnant21.html</A>More

reading, please, I pray, don't shrug it off! Don't you preach "Become informed?" <A href="http://www.year2000.com/y2karticles.html">www.year2000.com/y2karticles.html</A>

Message cf56848aWcW-3633-818+00.htm, number 29, was edited on Sun Dec 12 at 13:38:41

and replaces message cf56848aWcW-3633-783+00.htm

GRRRR, it happened to me!

savcash

<A HREF="mailto:a-team@stratos.net">a-team@stratos.net</A>

That old "Sham discount!!' http://www.casketstores.com/scams.htm ; A poor soul had called a f.h. to pick up his wife's body, talked about the service he wanted, and it came to $7,900.00 for that and the casket ($3,200.00) Then he got to thinking, he couldn't afford all that. So, he

found the lavender 18 g sealer with lilac flowers embedded in the head panel, and lilac same on white in the hardware - with A Team Masters, but for only $1,650.00. The last thing he said to me was " I'm not going to let that funeral director do this to me. I'll call to confirm." Well, it seems that the widower was talked out of this- "due to you won't really save anything if you don't buy the product from our funeral home, because the basic service fees will change then." I didn't say much to him, he only said "I'll sure know better next time, and am letting all my friends and family know about this too!" I didn't want to cause this man further

grief by getting into more of this with him. He made some very huge mistakes.... the first being - his wife was ill since jan.99 with this terminal Lou Garigigs (spelling??)and they made no plans. Then, he said he "knew I had to call a funeral director right away to come get the body" (wrong, he had time to do a little homework, even then) he met me in an old 1984 rusted out van.....the money that he could have used for a better car....and that wasn't even counting the burial plot,etc. Now, he has regrets spending $7,900.00 for just the funeral! And is mad at the F.DSo, how about it gang?? Want to start an insurance fund?? Something like -let's all contrubute $100.00 each, (have to iron out the details, and

have some restrictions I know)"Sham discount Insurance Fund" if your sale is lost due to this low life tactic, and you have joined, paid the fee

- the benefit will be: 1) Oh, really, is that what that funeral director

is telling you? I am a member of a group that fights sham discounts in the funeral homes. We are insured to prevent this unprofessional conduct. If that funeral director wants to make him/herself look really bad, I will help him/her along that line- all they want. If you give me the written agreement, the GPL from the funeral home, and let me know the amount that you have been told you will loose by purchasing here (say $800.00 or $1,200.00) our group will pay 1/2 of that amount, and our store is prepared

to discount your casket by that other 1/2 amount. 2) This will prevent you from seeing any lost "sham discount" and it will also.. 3) Prevent the funeral home from getting away with any shuffle of paperwork that is not the intent of the FTC rulings anyway 4) AND it will educate the public more about some of the funeral directors that want to risk looking bad. We will help them out to that end, until they wise up and stop low life tactics. Any takers??? Email me and we can work out all of the details. (1 I can think of right off, if the store uses the "sham discount insurance pool", it will need to repay the $100.00 fee again before it can re-use the pool. But, sounds like a great idea to me, and a small cost to pay - to get an industry that is supossed to hold the family in high regards, to do so!!!)Think on it, Betty ps..looking to the yr 2000, here is a photo of our "casketracer"A Team Master's sponsor of 4 cy speedway stockcar http://www.casketstores.com/ceilidh/attach/casketsm.JPG

[ This message was edited on Sun Dec 12 by the author ]

Message cdbcc5bdRMx-3633-954+00.htm, number 30, was posted on Sun Dec 12 at 15:54:12

in reply to cf56848aWcW-3633-818+00.htm

Re: Let God deal with the shammers

James

jsmith@usnet.net

If we put as much energy into winning soals to christ as casket stores put into the endless battle with funeral directors think what a difference it could make! http://members.xoom.com/biblestudies/study/rapture.htm

Message cf5684e5DSW-3634-501+00.htm, number 31, was posted on Mon Dec 13 at 08:22:48

in reply to cf56848aWcW-3633-818+00.htm

Sham discount counters

webmaster

<A HREF="mailto:casketstores@email.com">casketstores@email.com</A>

One thing that some retailers might consider doing:Tell the family that the shame discount at the funeral home is a loop hole in the FTC funeral rules, that is being worked on to close. And until that happens, your store

handles it this way: The family goes thru with the agreement at the f.h., however, that high priced casket is delivered to your casket store - and the family purchases the casket that they wanted from your store. It is delivered to the f.h. for the service, and the casket from the f.h. is placed upon your c.s. showroom, with a sign "This casket was purchased from

(--------funeral home) and the cost was $3,200.00 (whatever) and this same unit at our store is $1,650.00 (or whatever) or one that is apples to apples. It was part of a ploy that is known as a sham discount. Somthing that customers should become aware of at all costs, and avoid. Do not use morticans that use this practice of a shame discount, it does not have your

best interest at heart."It may not win friends and such, but it will make the next f.d. think twice about getting his name linked to this scheme and in your store! That name will be spread in gossip like wildfire,

bad for them! Maybe the press will write about this, if you get enough! It is also worth it to "show the f.h. it is NOT a no win situation" The worst thing of course, is that they are willing to place the

family in the middle at a time like this. But, it will come to an end soon,

with a combined effort!Just like the food store shows baskets of items purchased at the store down the street, for much more, it gives the higher priced store bad advertising - and shows the difference in cost. It is good

for the public to see, and good money spent on advertising on the store's part. All NCRA members, join us in resolving how to go about combating this underhanded ploy that is being used to drive some casket stores out of business - just so that the competition is not a problem anymore - at a great expense to the public!! The FTC will take a year or

more to get it done, we need to act now.

Message 98a3d5d4zF7-3634-573-00.htm, number 32, was posted on Mon Dec 13 at 09:32:59

funeral revised rule

PAUL

casktstore@aol.com

hello all last week on the 7th I was on the ftc.gov site and found the funeral industry practices revised rule part453. I am not sure but this seems to be the one we are waiting to see: listed under section 4. (iii)C.(2)is;The following statement: "Please note that a fee of (specify dollar amount)for the use of our basic services is included in the price of

our caskets. This same fee shall be added to the total cost of your funeral

arrangements if you provide the casket. Our services include(specify)." The

fee shall include all charges for the recovery of unallocated funeral provider overhead, and funeral providers may include in the required disclosure the phrase "and overhead" after the word "services". The statement must be placed on the general price list together with thecasket price range, required by paragraph (b)(4)(iii)(A)(1)of this section, or together with the prices of individual caskets, required by (b)(4)(iii)(A)(2) of this section. please check for yourself at http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/funeral/rule.htm

Message cf577cafDSW-3634-869+00.htm, number 33, was posted on Mon Dec 13 at 14:29:18

in reply to 98a3d5d4zF7-3634-573-00.htm

Re: funeral revised rule NOT YET

webmaster

<A HREF="mailto:casketstores@email.com">casketstores@email.com</A>

made public. When it is, it will be with much hoopla I am sure. It will also need to be called "FTC revision number TWO to the funeral rule" What you have found is I believe, the revised ruling from the first time. Have to run, will check out more later. But this is not the case here. And, I

am anxious to see, if there were ever a handling fee allowed, (and still

not sure there will be yet - willing to bet there will not be, but who knows??) would it stop some of these scams by only the unethical funeral directors?

Message cfae7f98WpK-3634-910-00.htm, number 34, was posted on Mon Dec 13 at 15:10:19

Savcashs' Insurance

Austin Q. Public

austinq.p@usa.net

I can hardly wait for you to start working on your insurance product. The state insurance division is going to want to know about your rates, how the

money is protected, how you intend to pay it, your officers, not to mention

the myriad of other questions they will have. I strongly doubt you will ever get it through, especially since, just going on pure math, if say, you

have five instances in a day or week, your fund could be tapped out before everyone got paid. It sounds like a good thought in mind, but put it to paper...

Message c6ea5e79WcW-3634-972+00.htm, number 35, was posted on Mon Dec 13 at 16:13:24

in reply to cfae7f98WpK-3634-910-00.htm

Re: Savcashs' Insurance

savcash

<A HREF="mailto:a-team@stratos.net">a-team@stratos.net</A>

On Mon Dec 13, Austin Q. Public wrote ------------------------------------- >I can hardly wait for you to start working on your insurance product. The state insurance division is going to want to know about your rates, how the money is protected, how you intend to pay it, your officers, not to mention the myriad of other questions they will have. I strongly doubt you will ever get it through, especially since, just going on pure math, if say, you have

five instances in a day or week, your fund could be tapped out before everyone got paid. It sounds like a good thought in mind, but put it to paper... -------I know :-( like I had said, needs restrictions. And you

are right about if it is an insurance or not.... don't really know about all that, and if indeed, do pools have all of those "myraid of questions." too? It maybe best if just the group of LOCAL c.s. got together and did this "sham pool" to work it out better. I really don't know how many times a day in the USA it happens - and sure would hope that the better part of the funeral homes do not resort to such low tactics. And if all this "pool/insur." didn't become something of a fix (short term) the legal system should be involved to stop it long term. It is outragious and the f.h. that use this should indeed be ashamed for it. They are "tappping out the family" damned if they do and damned if they don't. I will personnally do the way of exposure as much as I can for the f.h.s that I find that do this. All c.s. should!--/with that said, I visited the f.h. tonight that

used this ploy on that last widower. I can see how his funeral came to $7,900.00 I "shopped" for mine, saying a case of I wanted to be cremated, with a viewing. They were going to "rent me a really nice casket for $1,500.00!!!!!!!!!!!!! and it came to $4,600.00 - and the list he showed me

for other examples, one was "gaveside service - outlined all the costs, and

there was embalming ($445.,)and other prep. $60.00 and it came to $3,200.00

for that!! and $2,300.00 for a memorial service- Their casket costs started at $1,150.-- topped at $10,000.00I need to make a call to have him investigated!!

Message c6ea5e79WcW-3634-1024-00.htm, number 36, was posted on Mon Dec 13 at 17:03:56

ftc site with "meeting minutes" on funeral review

savcash

a-team@stratos.net

Here is the url for the whole 283 pages of the day's events! http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/rulemaking/funeral/conference.htm You can print it out at your local library for about $14.00 (if you didn't want

to tie up your equip.)or go to the site and phone about getting a paper copy from the FTC. (which I'll do and ask about the timeframe of any happenings as a result of all of this)

Message cdbcc7adCDQ-3634-1157-00.htm, number 37, was posted on Mon Dec 13 at 19:16:46

Slander

Big Sexy Embalming Guy

If you get a slander lawsuit from a funeral home it may cost you more than the loss to a sham. If a person believes in something they put there money where there mouth is and pay a lawyer to get the job done.

Message cf568515WcW-3634-1357+00.htm, number 38, was posted on Mon Dec 13 at 22:37:39

in reply to cdbcc5bdRMx-3633-954+00.htm

Amen!

savcash

<A HREF="mailto:a-team@stratos.net">a-team@stratos.net</A>

I agree!! In due time though.... I checked out your site, very interesting and well done. One thing I always remember - God made the birds and the seed, but those birds still have to scratch off the dirt to eat.Attitude: Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it. (here on Earth, and yes, the Bible is the book to study!) Merry Christmas! Here is a much visited site, fun & informative too. http://www.sentex.net/~kdor/christmas.html#Kids

Stories and ActivitiesAnd the reason for the season: http://www.geocities.com/~perkinshome/christmas.html And God Bleaa, Betty Brown, CEO http://www.burialitems.com/ATM.html

Message 98a3ccb5RMx-3635-375+00.htm, number 39, was posted on Tue Dec 14 at 06:14:34

in reply to cf568515WcW-3634-1357+00.htm

Re: Amen!

James

jsmith@;usnet.ne>

God has given you a healthy business (7 divisions) think what a difference your energy put into a christian web page would make and a race car with biblical ref's?

Message cf5687c4WcW-3635-528+00.htm, number 41, was posted on Tue Dec 14 at 08:48:18

in reply to 98a3ccb5RMx-3635-375+00.htm

Re^2: Amen!

savcash

a-team@stratos.net

On Tue Dec 14, James wrote -------------------------- >God has given you a healthy business (7 divisions) think what a difference your energy put into a christian web page would make and a race car with biblical ref's? -----Are we growing?? Where did you get 7? But there is such a page- linked from our selections page: http://webpost.net/te/teammaker/ and from that page, a link to "Awesome Christian sites" and others- and the race car " If you're racing in the wrong direction, God allows U-turns" and in our mission statement: http://www.webpost.net/te/teammaker/missonstmt.html

and from our fascinating places to visit page, "The Plan - find God" http://www.bible.org/docs/findgod/find.htm

from our Divisions page search engine to 777 - Christian sites, and from

our Goodies page..Life is short " I know who holds Tomorrow, & I know who holds my hand." Need a Church?add Your state, city to search! (link to church locations statewide) etc.. so, don't point too many fingers this way. Sure we all could do more, much more. But I don't hide my candle - if they know me...... So, we could do a Christian banner swap too ;-)

Message cf5685a9WcW-3636-673-00.htm, number 43, was posted on Wed Dec 15 at 11:13:16

FTC enforcement /FAMSA link

savcash

<A HREF="mailto:a-team@stratos.net">a-team@stratos.net</A>

The FTC "funeral rule" is big news, but, so is the lack of "follow up and governing of the exisiting......" http://www.senate.gov/~breaux/releases/991021.html FAMSA says the same thing http://vbiweb.champlain.edu/famsa/frop.htm "......will be written in invisable ink" And, concerning the new revisions - (copy) Here is FAMSA's commentary http://vbiweb.champlain.edu/famsa/famsa.htm

in response to the questions, with references documenting funeral and cemetery problems; submitted to the FTC August 11, 1999. The FTC staff will be reviewing all commentaries during the coming months. Recommended changes, if any, are not likely to be issued until after the first of the year, after which more commentaries will be solicited.

(end copy) Their comment is 20 pages, and worth printing out. (Lisa should blow her own horn more, it is an assist to the public to have that site up) And I called FTC to find out the cost of the "meeting minutes" for the 280 some pages....it is over $500.00 - includes diskette and keyword available search. (like the $14.00 lib/figure lots better!)ps. Robin, they are not to my knowledge, Laura would know. They aren't listed on the Directory either. Think it is run by 1 or 2 funeral directors, but they don't do funerals.

Message cf577cbbDSW-3636-1068-00.htm, number 44, was posted on Wed Dec 15 at 17:48:08

Independent funeral homes biggest problem

webmaster

casketstores@email.com

I wish a funeral director would put these in order of what they see as their biggest threat to a healthy bottom line.The Chains taking over (coporate buyouts) http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/daily/detail/0,1136,11000000000056973,00.html

Church becomes involved in death care industryCasket stores open to public Cremation becoming more popularLess spendable income for familiesLonger life (less funeral per month)Bad press covering the outlaws in the industryDid I forget any? (Won't say government involvement, as I don't look at that as a negative)A link that speaks of

most of the above, but not in order http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/daily/detail/0,1136,11000000000056972,00.html

be sure to see the sidebars of links

money's short times are hard, here's your card.

buba

Coffee in bed A sweet little boy surprised his grandmother one morning and brought her a cup of coffee. He made it himself and

was so proud. He anxiously waited to hear the verdict on the quality of

the coffee. The grandmother had never in her life had such a bad cup of coffee, and as she forced down the last sip she noticed three of those little green army guys in the bottom of the cup. She asked, "Honey, why would three little green army guys be in the bottom of my cup?" Her grandson replied, "You know grandma, it's like on TV... 'The best part of waking up is soldiers in your cup.' {Read the rules, Bub- no trash allowed. Post was edited, no surprise}

[ This message was edited on Fri Dec 17 by webmaster ]

Message cf568467WcW-3640-847+00.htm, number 47, was posted on Sun Dec 19 at 14:08:44

in reply to cf577cbbDSW-3636-1072-00.htm

Re: Independent's problem

savcash

<A HREF="mailto:a-team@stratos.net">a-team@stratos.net</A>

On Wed Dec 15, webmaster wrote ------------------------------ >I wish

a funeral director would put these in order of what they see as their biggest threat to a healthy bottom line.-----I swiped this answer from another board. Posted by Chuck G. Three comments - if I didn't know better, I would think it was an unbiased opinion, (how I see it too, but I am a retailer, and he is a funeral director)- we are all open minded, no fear of thinking it was slanted towards "anti-casket" stores, just because it may contain a way of thinking that may not be shared across the board (membership.)And Chuck, thank you for spending the time in replying, but

too- he " Wished they could be put in order" I think because in reality, a share of the funeral directors think their problems started with the opening of the casket store. What would you place as number one reason for their (indy's) loss of income, shrinking pie? I could

be wrong, but I would think it was the "Big guys" crowding and they are also part of the group that "gets the bad press" (altho not all certianly). And I wasn't involved back when the FTC rule was put into effect, but those "big players" didn't cause that (more or less) did they? But since then, I think it is part of the more restrictive actions and closer looks that are happening, or being considered. So, they are the biggest threat to a healthly bottom line, no? Or the reason some funeral homes end up closing, not the opening of the casket store. Thanks again

Chuck, for the input, happy holidays. http://www.funeral.com/open_funeral/messages/1134.html

<HR SIZE=4> <inserted from the http://www.funeral.com bb site:> Response from Chuck G.

Posted by ChuckG on December 19, 1999 at 10:23:46:

This is in response to a question posed by the NCRA's Webmaster on their bulletin board. The Webmaster listed several developments relative to independent funeral homes, and asked independent funeral directors to comment on how damaging to an indy's bottom line we thought each one was. In view of the fact that some of my comments could be taken as anti-casketstore, it is probably better if I reply here.

:The chains taking over...

Theoretically, the chains "could" lower the prices at one or more of their locations to squeeze their independent competitors out of business, but it just doesn't happen. Stockholders and beancounters have no tolerance for operating at a loss, but "mom & pop" will cut corners and cut back on their

salary if it means the survival of the family business in the future.

:Church becomes involved in death care industry

The church has always been involved in deathcare. But, at least in my area,

the church (Archdiocese) run cemeteries are some of the most expensive, poorly maintained cemeteries you coud ever use. I have little faith that they could do any better running funeral homes.

:Casketstores open to the public

I don't believe that casketstores are a threat to well-run, progressive funeral homes. The casket is only one component of the many services, facilities and goods that we provide. The casket sale can represent as much, or as little of the per-funeral profit as the funeral director chooses. Virtually all families need at least some of the services provided

by a funeral director, no matter how simple, or elaborate their choice of disposition may be. In other words, casketstores need funeral home in order

to sell their product, but funeral homes don't need casketstores in order to provide their services.

:Cremation becoming more popular

Marketed and presented properly, cremation can be profitable for funeral homes. We can no longer afford to treat cremation as a second class form of

disposition, and those firms that don't, will thrive. Although cremation generally doesn't involve the purchase of as much merchandise as burial, it

is often just as labor and service intensive - if not more so. A firm that charges adequately for their labor and services will not be adversely affected by a rising cremation rate.

:Less spendable income for families

Let's not be naive. Just like EVERY other business, we have to compete for an ever-shrinking piece of the consumer's "disposable income pie". I think the key is to look at the trends, and tailor services to what the consumer wants. People are ALWAYS willing to pay for what they want, and today's consumer wants service.

:Longer life (less funeral per month)

Fluctuations in the population bring changes to society's various institutions. From the school building spree of the 1950s, to the healthcare crunch of today, and the deatcare boom of tomorrow. It will be interesting to see what changes the Baby Boomers will bring to the funeral industry.

:Bad press covering the outlaws in the industry

While it is true that there has been a lot of "bad press" which might influence the public's attitude toward funeral homes in general, independent polls show that most people still hold their funeral director in very high esteem (higher, in fact than journalists). This is because the

majority of funeral homes have earned the trust of the families that they have served over years, and even generations.

:Did I forget any? (Won't say government involvement....

At least for funeral homes, government involvement (in the form of the FTC Rule) has had a positive effect. It dragged the funeral industry kicking and screaming into the 20th Century with regard to how we presented, and charged for the goods and services that we provide. As long as government regulation is fairly applied to all, it shouldn't be an overwelming financial burden on any well-run business, as these costs are passed on to the consumer.

ChuckG---------------

Message 98a3d5c2zF7-3641-779-00.htm, number 48, was posted on Mon Dec 20 at 12:59:16

non-profit

PAUL

casktstore@aol.com

does anyone have any insight as to the possible benefit of changing our business to a non-profit organization? we are thinking that this may convince the public in our area to support our store. It wouldnt matter much anyway since we have not made a profit since opening in July 99. thanks

Message cf568583DSW-3642-21-00.htm, number 49, was posted on Tue Dec 21 at 00:44:33

ORIGINS OF UNDERTAKING:

webmaster

<A HREF="mailto:casketstores@email.com">casketstores@email.com</A>

http://dave.burrell.net/OofUnder.html

A site of funeral history. If you return to the home page, you also can explore links about:Uncovers a 19th-century revolution. Subtitled "How Antebellum Merchants Made Death Their Business" The Contest over Slave Funerals Suggests the importance of funerals in understanding slavery. Value and Meaning in Dead Bodies Shows dramatic change in 19th-century American law. Gravestones of Geauga County, Ohio Seeks links between gravestone symbols, religious beliefs, and attitudes toward death.

Message ce9cf221RN9-3642-606+00.htm, number 50, was posted on Tue Dec 21 at 10:06:40

in reply to 98a3d5c2zF7-3641-779-00.htm

Re: non-profit

robin

<A HREF="mailto:jtbod1@netscape.net">jtbod1@netscape.net</A>

Paul: May I respectfully suggest you contact corporate counsel regarding

this choice (versus a public bulletin board). I have reasonable experience with 501(c)(3)'s, and there are pitfalls to the unwary as regards compensation, future "profits" (that you may wish to inure to the benefit of yourself) and much more. The suggestion that the public may be drawn to your business due to philanthropic reasons is probably presumptious; good products, price and service will accomplish that (IMO).I'll copy a bit of one (of many)concerns you should have, assuming you will reach profitability some day... and would like to reward yourself for your hard work.>>Tax-exempt organizations and their advisors are engaged in a seemingly endless process of interpreting the fundamental, yet sometimes elusive, concept of "inurement". Charitable and educational organizations may only qualify for tax-exempt status if "no part of the net earnings of [such organizations] inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual". The same concept applies to civil leagues or social welfare organizations. A similar, some would say redundant, rule applies to private

foundations with respect to compensation for personal services. In order to

escape classification as prohibited self dealing, payments by private foundations to disqualified persons must be for personal services which are

"reasonable and necessary" to the exempt purposes of the organization and the compensation must not be "excessive". Obviously, inurement to a private

person can come in numerous forms, including the payment of dividends or profit participations, joint ventures with for-profit persons that provide unreasonably high returns for taxable entities at the expense of the tax-exempt entity, leases or licenses to for-profit persons for inadequate consideration, leases or licenses from for-profit persons at excessive rates, unfair loans, sales at less than fair market value, purchases at more than fair market value, or excessive compensation for services, whether in the form of wages, fees, benefits or other direct or indirect payments or reimbursements.>>Paul. penalties are extremely high. For more reading, go to http://www.lawoffice.com/pathfind/knowbase/article.asp?articleID=2733&topic=909&sortby=alpha&source=&state=

and contact an attorney.Robin

http://www.spectre-press.com/ <HR SIZE=4>

Message cf5684c9WcW-3643-1261+00.htm, number 52, was posted on Wed Dec 22 at 21:01:39

in reply to cdbcc7adCDQ-3634-1157-00.htm

if it is NOT Slander

savcash

<A HREF="mailto:a-team@stratos.net">a-team@stratos.net</A>

On Mon Dec 13, Big Sexy Embalming Guy wrote ------------------------------------------- >If you get a slander lawsuit from a funeral home it may cost you more than the loss to a

sham. If a person believes in something they put there money where there mouth is and pay a lawyer to get the job done. ------Quote:"slander spoken expression about a person that is false and damages that person's reputation." If it is true, it can't be condidered slander in this "example" of the high cost of this casket at the -------funeral home, that employed a "sham discount" ploy on one of their past customers. So, I don't think anyone need worry about any slander lawsuit for telling the truth. I am waiting to see some false advertising from a f.h. that says it should be "trusted, because we care." when indeed, they are using that sham

discount. (Quote: "false pretenses premeditated and calculated lies about facts or situations intended to cheat a person out of money or property.) I even looked up a few cases of slander: US financial firm sues Internet users for slander http://detnews.com/1999/technology/9903/09/03090130.htm Ripken's wife did not defame former landlady according to court http://detnews.com/1998/sports/9803/12/03120171.htm

Message 98a3c5d0z5a-3644-1087-00.htm, number 53, was posted on Thu Dec 23 at 18:06:59

WISHES

competitive caskets inc.

<A HREF="mailto:jjjgjs@aol.com">jjjgjs@aol.com</A>

WARMEST---- WISHES FOR A HAPPY HOLIDAY SEASON!!THIS IS OUR YEAR 2000!!!!! george competitive caskets

inc.

Message cf5684a4WcW-3644-1324+00.htm, number 54, was posted on Thu Dec 23 at 22:54:05

in reply to 98a3c5d0z5a-3644-1087-00.htm

Joy to the World...

savcash

<A HREF="mailto:a-team@stratos.net">a-team@stratos.net</A>

Thanks George, to all also: <img src="http://www.123greetings.com/events/edec_c_newjingle/7126-005-05-1028.gif">

This site

webmaster

<A HREF="mailto:casketstores@email.com">casketstores@email.com</A>

The idea of having people register, is to inform, share and express however

they see fit - with the rules in mind. Because someone shared, but didn't leave a valid email, (rules) it was deleted.

Web Page created with Text2Web v1.5.0 by Dev Virdi
http://www.virdi.demon.co.uk/