>>www.burialitems.com/Orders.html

>Betty - I checked out that link and

>UUUGGGHHHHH!!!!!  Who in the heck is doing your website?  I showed it to ten people and all had that greenish deathly look.   It's not the content; it's the seven different fonts, fourteen different colors, six varieties of spacing, three options of bold...and that's all within one paragraph!

>It is un-readable.  Period.  End of Story.

>I am going to have a web-developer that I know very well call you.  You will be offered the service "at cost" -- I promise..no mark-up...just the equivalent wages of what the person earns per hour.  

>Trust me (and others have been too nice to tell you)...the site is asking readers to have a headache and is really butt-ugly (as we used to say).  I'll read the content after you consider the fix.

>Pal Robin

Well,,, I put up the link prior to all of the finish work - I want to view it with other browsers, which do you use?? And you do sound a bit like one of my favorite relatives HOWEVER their very worst habit is
s-t-r-e-c-h-i-n-g the truth a bit. The only colors used on the whole site (not in the 1st par) totaled - brown, black, red, blue & the color I wanted to perhaps change, after looking at it from more than one browsers, the lavender (and not counting the light/dark or rather bold variations of those colors or the unvistited link or visited link colors)
Thats five -5- colors (if we count the link colors (2) and the lt/bold
of the brown, black, red & blue - which you shouldn't really, that's
5 more = 7 there, so thats 12 colors on the whole site for the text-
doing a double check, I find one more (one sentence in green) so over all the site I get 13 colors - what browser are you using??? But I'm glad you're reading and showing people (will fix some tho, thanks for the input) but don't have your buddy call, I really don't want a page that looks like those run of the mill, where you can't remember anything dif/about it to set it apart from the others.

Thanks too for the run down on the other own/sell - you sure know a lot about the trade (are you not an outsider to it?) Let me ask one more question of you about it - ever heard of the  NSM Purchasing
Association? Or know any thing at all about it? Owners - location
ect? All I could find on it were the total of 865 membership.

Message 98a3c942z5a-3776-337-00.htm, number 222, was posted on Wed May 3 at 05:37:05
ROBIN

competitive caskets inc.
jjjgjs@aol.com

Message ce9cf221RN9-3776-492-00.htm, number 223, was posted on Wed May 3 at 08:14:09
Answer to NSM Question for B.

robin
jtbod1@netscape.net

All the stuff I comment upon is generally public information.  As an investor, I use the Edgar service.  This is the SEC document site for any publicly traded company.  So, when you asked about YRKG subsidiaries, I simply clicked on Edgar, searched for the latest 10-K (annual report) and used my Edit key on Netscape (to answer your previous question re the browser) to "find" the word "subsidiaries".  I could have used Elder.  A quick copy and paste to this board, and all is done.  So, that's not too hard.  The IFA stuff came from the HB info, as well as a few phone calls from ex-subscribers to the association for other reasons.

Now, the reason you got confused with "NSM Purchasing Association" is that it sounds like an outside group that bulk buys product.  It is not.  It is simply the National Select Morticians, a dues paying group of independents, similar to the Order of the Golden Rule. They have certain standards, including credit/background checks on the FD and his facility, and operate internationally.  Purportedly, they are inde. funeral homes that have minimal risk to the clients about fair pricing, presentation of the GPL, and so on.  Like OGR, if they get in trouble, they may lose their affiliation. www.nsm.org/

In any case, the NSM, like other groups or associations, desired the efficiencies (and profitability) of group purchasing of their caskets and other products.  Because they are all independent of each other, there was concern within the group of an anti-trust problem if they were to receive, essentially, "price-fixed" product.  So, they did the right thing as far as the law is concerned, and contacted the feds for a review of the applicability of the Sherman (anti-trust) act.  They received a positive response, and actually made quite a big deal out of it.  Their press release can be found somewhere on the Internet; you'll have to search for it or I will later.  Something to the effect of "NSM receives governmental waiver of anti-trust provision, allowing NSM funeral homes to obtain group (discount) pricing"...and so on....suggesting that they may be able to offer better pricing to their clients.  (Also, you should subscribe tothe mortuary publications...they always have "inside" info and press releases.)  

Now, in the real world this was a bunch of hype.  Almost anyone can form a GPO and, under the auspices of an association, obtain group pricing.  It's the norm in pharmacy and healthcare.  Only stupid independents do not belong to an industry buying group.  

Your number of 850 or some sounds about right.  That would be about 5-6% of the total active independent funeral homes.  (Of the 21,000 or so, many are publicly owned).  Because this is a relatively large amount, I see why they went through the anti-trust thing, but, again, any group can basically do the same.  BTW, they purchase from one of the "Big 3" plus a few of the regional manufacturers.

Last, to the post below, I'm not in the market for a new job, but thanks.

Robin.

PS to B:  I wasn't being nasty about the look of your site, but I repeat, it is too convoluted.  Consider second (and third) opinions!

Message cf577cbcCZt-3776-607+00.htm, number 224, was posted on Wed May 3 at 10:07:29
in reply to ce9cf221RN9-3776-492-00.htm
NSM members

savcash
a-team@stratos.net

>In any case, the NSM, like other groups or associations, desired the efficiencies (and profitability) of group purchasing of their caskets and other products.  Because they are all independent of each other, there was concern within the group of an anti-trust problem if they were to receive, essentially, "price-fixed" product.  So, they did the right thing as far as the law is concerned, and contacted the feds for a review of the applicability of the Sherman (anti-trust) act.  They received a positive response, and actually made quite a big deal out of it.  Their press release can be found somewhere on the Internet; you'll have to search for it or I will later.  Something to the effect of "NSM receives governmental waiver of anti-trust provision, allowing NSM funeral homes to obtain group (discount) pricing"...and so on....suggesting that they may be able to offer better pricing to their clients.  (Also, you should subscribe tothe mortuary publications...they always have "inside" info and press releases.)  

>Now, in the real world this was a bunch of hype.  Almost anyone can form a GPO and, under the auspices of an association, obtain group pricing.  It's the norm in pharmacy and healthcare.  Only stupid independents do not belong to an industry buying group.  

>Your number of 850 or some sounds about right.  That would be about 5-6% of the total active independent funeral homes.  (Of the 21,000 or so, many are publicly owned).  Because this is a relatively large amount, I see why they went through the anti-trust thing, but, again, any group can basically do the same.  BTW, they purchase from one of the "Big 3" plus a few of the regional manufacturers.

>Last, to the post below, I'm not in the market for a new job, but thanks.
----if you were in the field of morticians, you would be outstanding;-) because you don't skim on the just the surface.
>Robin.


---That org. seems more committed to the following of the FTC rule than the NFDA and I checked to see how many local biz there were, quite a few we have serviced product for ;-)and no hassle. But the one f.h. that still leaves a sour pit in my stomach wasn't on the list. If they were (were the guy acted like a used car salesman and reduced the price to meet mine) the sincerity of the site - gave me a little hope -such that I would have wrote to them to expose to them that their member is not upstanding. I bookmarked it and will see if ever I have the need to complain to them about any of their members, just to see if indeed, I get any response that seems in line with the site. And if keeping track now, I will also let them know if I see any dif/in doing biz with their members compared to those of just the NFDA and will compliment them there on that, if that is the case.
But, they don't promote themselves nothing like the NFDA does, for the public to be made aware much of a comparison or change. And no where on the site was any offer of a publication (so I asked)
---If I had to guess which of the "big three" it would be - I'd say
York - Batesville no - they have been called tradiors (sp?) now and I even hear news that they are now going to open a shop in Mexico. Ugh-
and sell Americans, wonder if they will promote that news? More of what's wrong with them - sure bet they don't. And I don't know if A. would be it, don't hear much of them. But indeed I do wonder how much of a discount that the group gets over those non members you talked about, on a cost of the wholesale casket??

Message cf56854fCZt-3779-484-00.htm, number 225, was posted on Sat May 6 at 08:04:40
you can't take it with you ;-)

savcash
a-team@stratos.net

Sorry, but you can't take your wealth with you
==============================================

There once was a rich man who was near death. He was very
grieved because he had worked so hard for his money and he
wanted to be able to take it with him to heaven. So he began
to pray that he might be able to take some of his wealth
with him.

An angel hears his plea and appears to him. "Sorry, but you
can't take your wealth with you." The man implores the angel
to speak to God to see if He might bend the rules.

The man continues to pray that his wealth could follow him.
The angel reappears and informs the man that God has decided
to allow him to take one suitcase with him. Overjoyed, the
man gathers his largest suitcase and fills it with pure gold
bars and places it beside his bed.

Soon afterward he dies and shows up at the Gates of Heaven to
greet St. Peter.  St. Peter seeing the suitcase says, "Hold
on, you can't bring that in here!"

But, the man explains to St. Peter that he has permission and
asks him to verify his story with the Lord. Sure enough, St.
Peter checks and comes back saying, "You're right. You are
allowed one carry-on bag, but I'm supposed to check its
contents before letting it through."

St. Peter opens the suitcase to inspect the worldly items that
the man found too precious to leave behind and exclaims, "You
brought pavement?"

Submitted by Dag Frode

Send your favorite jokes to jokes@inc.HumorShack.com
________________________________________________________

Message 98a3c5c4yLQ-3782-918-00.htm, number 226, was posted on Tue May 9 at 15:20:18
New Kid on the Block

The Casket Shoppe
necgroup@aol.com

Message cf577ca9CZt-3783-508+00.htm, number 227, was posted on Wed May 10 at 08:28:10
in reply to 98a3c5c4yLQ-3782-918-00.htm
Re: New Kid on the Block

savcash
a-team@stratos.net

Message cdbcc0b6z5a-3783-1012-00.htm, number 228, was posted on Wed May 10 at 16:53:54
new kid and wife

competitive caskets inc.
jjjgjs@aol.com

Message 3f0f8eceCen-3785-1133-00.htm, number 229, was posted on Fri May 12 at 18:55:31
Need help from any NFDA member.

RJohnson
robert_r_johnson@msn.com

   I also submitted comments to the Committee on my understanding of the extent of the FTC's enforcement of the Funeral Rule, and aspects of the Funeral Offenders Program as administered by the National Funeral Directors Association.

   The Aging Committee hearing was obviously related to the Federal Trade Commission's ongoing reassessment of its Funeral Rule.  The FTC, after soliciting and receiving public comments last summer, is expected to announce in the near future whether it will recommend any changes to the Funeral Rule.

    I am interested in following the process.  The NFDA web site, NFDA.ORG, lists the following report, Aging Committee After-Action Report, however, it is restricted to NFDA members only.  Could some NFDA member download the report and either post it on Ceilidh or email it to me at MotheFacts@hotmail.com.  The address for the report is www.nfda.org/memberpage/govrel/aging.html.

   I am trying to gain any insight I can into the manner of federal regulation the funeral industry.  I thank you for your assistance.

       RJohnson
 

Message cf568794LmM-3785-1140-00.htm, number 230, was posted on Fri May 12 at 18:59:49
For Mom

webmaster
casketstores@email.com

When I was a child, you held me tight.
You calmed my fears late at night.
You tucked me in, with a tender kiss
and prayed with me with me without a miss.

I watched you work, and loved you so.
You watched with patience, and let me grow.
Making mistakes here and there,
YOu offered help with loving care.

But the time of separation came.
Joy for me, not sensing your pain.
Separation from mother, like a birthing moan,
But this time mother, after the pain, is alone.
With no little child to hold to her breast,
To make the pain worthwhile, and feel wonderfully blessed.

You could only watch, to see how you'd done.
As I make my home caring for each daughter and son.
You made me feel proud, and helped when you could,
But your job was done, and we both understood.

Now times have changed, the years gone by.
Our roles reversed, you and I.
I calm your fears and hold you tight,
And come when you call, late at night.

My love for you has no end,
As did your love for me.
It doesn't stop, has no bounds,
It's like the endless sea.

My wave of love engulfs you now,
As with nuturing care and discern;
I pray for you, and hold your hand,
With patience and concern.

We have a bond and will never part,
A love that flows between our hearts,
So when seperation time comes again,
It will be me, that bears the pain.
But I'll dry the tears and with a kiss,
   I'll gently tuck you in.

           From friend at church, MaryAnn, to her Mom

Please take the time to tell her you love her, no matter where you are, how long it has been, or whatever the riff, if any - life is really so short.

To my Mom, Thanks (don't worry, you did a good job) & I love you!

Message 98a3ccc4DIr-3789-1317-00.htm, number 231, was posted on Tue May 16 at 21:56:36
XXXXXXXXx are kinda like cockaroaches

Jane Doe

Message cc601834PRl-3789-1413+00.htm, number 232, was posted on Tue May 16 at 23:33:34
in reply to 98a3ccc4DIr-3789-1317-00.htm
Re: Mxxxxxxxns are kinda like cockaroaches

De'Lores P. Arline
delarl@usa.net

>You try to keep them out but they invade anyway!  And they are filthy!

Message 98a3ccc4DIr-3789-1317+00.htm, number 231, was edited on Wed May 17 at 00:37:35
and replaces message 98a3ccc4DIr-3789-1317-00.htm
(snip) are kinda like (snip)

Jane Doe

(The post was a waste of time by (snip))

[ This message was edited on Wed May 17 by webmaster ]

Message cc601834PRl-3789-1413+00.htm, number 232, was edited on Wed May 17 at 00:45:18
Re: are kinda like

De'Lores P. Arline
delarl@usa.net

>You try to keep
(Note: webmaster (snipped) -and this reply is being too kind. I wouldn't have considered the poster a person, but rather much a cowardly twit.)

[ This message was edited on Wed May 17 by webmaster ]

Message cf24ef4bImK-3791-495-00.htm, number 233, was posted on Thu May 18 at 08:14:39
New To Biz! Batesville vs Dot-Com

ValDan
oldeworldcasket@aol.com

We are just entering this business and have an interesting story to tell - hopefully someone here may be able to shed some light on this. In our endeavor to "start-up" our business, we began contacting casket manufacturers, of course one of these was Batesville Casket Company. The response we received from Batesville is quoted as follows:

 "At the present time, we sell and distribute our caskets only through licensed funeral directors operating licensed funeral firms.If you meet these requirements, we will be happy to send a sales representative to visit with you.Let us know!"

Our follow up was a request for an official response from Batesville as to why an e-commerce company (www.Webcaskets.com) is prominently displaying the official Batesville trademark as well as the Batesville product line when they emphatically make the following public disclosure statement on their website:

'...WebCaskets.com is not owned by, associated or affliated with any funeral homes or funeral home companies in any capacity.'

We notice that WebCaskets.com is advertising on this bulletinboard - perhaps someone has some "inside information" as to how they were able to accomplish acquiring the Batesvile line?

Also, does anyone have any information on CasketRoyale? We're considering them as a supplier - are they reputable, has anyone had any experience with them? Any suggestions for our start-up would be most welcomed and appreciated!

We appreciate the presence of this forum and look forward to becoming active members. Thanks!

Dan & Val - Fort Lauderdale, Florida

Message cf577c5aCZt-3791-709+00.htm, number 234, was posted on Thu May 18 at 11:49:31
in reply to cf24ef4bImK-3791-495-00.htm
News to use...

savcash
a-team@stratos.net

>  "At the present time, we sell and distribute our caskets only through licensed funeral directors operating licensed funeral firms.If you meet these requirements, we will be happy to send a sales representative to visit with you.Let us know!"

>Our follow up was a request for an official response from Batesville as to why an e-commerce company ---
-----Most any retailer can get most any product, from others in the
field. At an added broker fee, retailers still beat the cost of the
same unit, from that funeral director! If you work on some
arrangements, you can too ;-) (But that product is over-rated, overpriced and with their restrictions, the last one I offer. I have
sold Batesville, but what for?? There are so many other units that
look and cost more what the client needs)
The web site gets its images/logos from a licensed f.d. and with
the statement, is okay to sell.   Don't you just love the answer
from Batesville, "at the present time"  what is that , a tease??
Ha, of course they'd like to think it is cast in stone, but I will
bet you good money, they will not be "permitted" to - forever - even
just under 3 yrs. If you get an answer to your letters, let us know.
(And to be sure, Batesville is counting the requests they get from casket stores. Keep your response - so you can have the last laugh)
>Also, does anyone have any information on CasketRoyale? We're considering them as a supplier - are they reputable, has anyone had any experience with them? Any suggestions for our start-up would be most welcomed and appreciated!
-----Yep, one should always have more that one source. They are fine-
Are you selling more woods or steel? No one much in the group (and you sure can't blame them) releases the names of the suppliers they have.
At least not on a bb. But we're a friendly group and share alot with friends ;-)  Glad to have you aboard.

Here is a link that is interesting
nbcin.nbc5.com/tvsd/inside/news/funerals.shtml
and shows why we are needed so!

Lowen Group -
(copy)Loewen Group, the world's #2 funeral services company,
                    behind Service Corporation International (SCI), once
                    would have loved to cremate SCI, but now it urns only to
                    survive. The company owns or operates more than 1,100
                    funeral homes and more than 400 cemeteries in the US,
                    Canada, and the UK. Most of its sales come from funeral
                    services, which include collection of remains, death
                    registration, embalming, and caskets. Loewen has grown
                    through acquisitions, buying funeral homes in clusters or
                    in one geographic area and preserving their local
                    identities. However, the acquisitions have overwhelmed
                    Loewen with debt; it has sought bankruptcy protection
                    and is selling several hundred funeral home and
                    cemetery locations
www.loewen.ca/home.nsf/public/2000MAY01

Message cf248716ImK-3791-997-00.htm, number 235, was posted on Thu May 18 at 16:37:15
Afterthoughts: BUYERS GROUP POSSIBILITIES?

ValDan
oldeworldcasket@aol.com

Has anyone here considered the possibilities of forming a Buyers Group? There's certainly strength in numbers - not to mention margin!

Message cf577c8aCZt-3792-524+00.htm, number 237, was posted on Fri May 19 at 08:49:55
in reply to 98a3ccc0S0U-3791-1175+00.htm
action....

savcash
a-team@stratos.net

www.wvfda.org/news1998.htm

And now, for more grins, this is how I see us, the third party retailer and the funeral industry, trying to put us out (but it ain't working! Well, for the most part, there have been a few loses...._
www.history.ohio-state.edu/projects/uscartoons/gapecartoons/DemocracyAntiTrustFlame.htm
Anti-trust is good, but it doesn't go far enough concerning us, just yet anyway.
The start of gaining level ground in that respect
acra.org/board/?topic=topic1&msg=22

Those that think it (anti-trust) is hurting no one (but are about to wake up if I have my way)and have used it to their advantage. (In answer to your question,) it has been done, from our compitition.
(copy)View the corresponding press release



January 13, 1999


Michael P.A. Cohen, Esq.
Howrey & Simon
1299 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20004-2402

Dear Mr. Cohen:

This is in response to your request on behalf of the NSM Purchasing
Association ("the
Association") for the issuance of a business review letter pursuant
to the Department of Justice's
Business Review Procedure, 28 C.F.R. § 50.6. You have requested a
statement of the Department of
Justice's antitrust enforcement intentions with respect to a proposal
to establish the Association as a
joint purchasing agent for privately-owned funeral homes.

NSM is a trade association of some 865 privately-owned funeral homes
who account for 6.3
percent of funeral home locations in the United States. It seeks to
form a joint purchasing entity that
would aggregate the casket purchases of NSM's members so that they
could obtain the type of
quantity discounts (up to 40 percent) that you say the casket
manufacturers are currently offering to the
larger corporate providers of funeral services.

Your application asserts that independent family-owned funeral homes
have faced increased price
competition in recent years as a result of several different trends.
The most important, you suggest, has
been acquisition consolidation that has allowed the largest corporate
funeral service providers to reduce
their cost structures by obtaining purchasing discounts and other
economies of scale and scope. In
addition, you note that during the 1990s the family-owned funeral
homes have also faced significant
pricing pressures because of the increased use of crematoria. Between
1990 and 1995 the share of
total funeral services provided by cremation rather than traditional
burial increased from 17 percent to
21 percent, in large part because of the former's significantly lower
costs.

Finally, you indicate that competition in the funeral service
business has been increased by new
entry from cemeteries and direct selling casket retailers.

The proposal to establish the NSM Purchasing Association is designed
to allow NSM's members
to pool their casket purchases so that they can obtain the volume
discounts of up to 40 percent that you
say are currently available to their larger rivals. This reduction in
their casket purchase costs would
allow NSM's members to compete more effectively for price-sensitive
customers since casket costs
accounted for 16.91 percent of an adult funeral's cost in 1997.

The proposed joint purchasing entity will be operated in a manner
designed to reduce competitive
risk. Its business will be conducted by a full-time buying agent and
staff that are not employed by NSM
or any member thereof. The independent buying agent will keep all
competitively sensitive information
confidential, i.e., it will not disseminate any such information
among its members. Use of the joint
purchasing agent will be available to any family or privately-owned
funeral home in the United States,
not just to NSM members. It will not be available, however, to the
large corporate funeral service
providers who already are getting the large volume discounts that are
the goal of the joint purchasing
arrangement. The Constitution and By-Laws of the Association will cap
membership to prevent it from
exceeding 35 percent of United States casket purchases. Members will
remain free to purchase outside
of the joint venture. Legal counsel will be present at all meetings
of the joint venture and acceptance of
an antitrust compliance policy will be a condition of membership in
the joint venture.

On the basis of the information and assurances that you have provided
us, it does not appear that
the Association's joint purchasing proposal is likely to have an
anticompetitive effect in either the casket
or funeral services market. The relatively small share of casket
purchases accounted for by NSM's
members, the ratio of casket costs to funeral service prices, and the
prophylactic measures that will be
adopted to reduce antitrust risk lead us to conclude that NSM's
proposal should not harm any seller or
consumer interest. Moreover, to the extent that the proposed joint
purchasing reduces NSM members'
costs and such savings are shared with consumers, the proposal could
have a procompetitive effect.

For these reasons, the Department is not presently inclined to
initiate antitrust enforcement action
against NSM's proposal. This letter, however, expresses the
Department's current enforcement
intention. In accordance with our normal practices, the Department
reserves the right to bring any
enforcement action in the future if the actual operation of the
proposed joint purchasing program proves
to be anticompetitive in any purpose or effect.

This statement is made in accordance with the Department's Business
Review Procedure, 28
C.F.R. § 50.6. Pursuant to its terms, your business review request
and this letter will be made publicly
available immediately, and any supporting data will be made publicly
available within 30 days of the
date of this letter, unless you request that part of the material be
withheld in accordance with Paragraph
10(c) of the Business Review Procedure.

Sincerely,


____________/s/______________
JOEL I. KLEIN
Assistant Attorney General

And a copy of the press release - -------
Download the WP 5.1 version

View the corresponding business review



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 13, 1999
WWW.USDOJ.GOV/ATR
AT
(202) 616-2771
TDD: (202) 514-1888


JUSTICE DEPARTMENT APPROVES PROPOSAL BY PRIVATELY-OWNED
FUNERAL HOMES TO ENGAGE IN JOINT PURCHASING OF CASKETS


WASHINGTON, D.C. -- The Department of Justice today approved a
proposal by NSM, a
trade association of 865 privately-owned funeral homes, that would
allow it to engage in the joint
purchasing of caskets.

In a business review letter issued by Joel I. Klein, Assistant
Attorney General in charge of the
Antitrust Division, the Department stated that NSM's proposal should
not harm any seller or
consumer because NSM members purchase a relatively small share of
caskets, the cost of caskets
are a fraction of overall funeral service prices, and NSM will be
adopting measures to reduce
antitrust risk.

According to NSM, independent family-owned funeral homes have faced
increased price
competition in recent years as a result of acquisition consolidation,
increased use of crematoria, and
new entry from cemeteries and direct selling casket retailers. The
proposed NSM Purchasing
Association would allow NSM members to pool their casket purchases so
that they can obtain the
type of quantity discounts that are said to be offered by casket
manufacturers to the larger
corporate providers of funeral services. Reduction in the casket
purchase costs would allow
NSM's members to compete more effectively for price sensitive
customers.

The proposed joint purchasing entity would be operated in a manner
designed to reduce
competitive risk. Its business operations would be conducted by a
full-time buying agent and

staff that are not employed by or members of NSM. The independent
buying agent would keep all
competitively sensitive information confidential, and would not
disseminate any such information
among the members. Use of the joint purchasing agent would be
available to other family or
privately-owned funeral homes in the United States, not just to NSM
members, and members
would remain free to purchase caskets outside of the joint venture.

The Constitution and By-Laws of the Association will cap membership
to prevent it from exceeding
35 percent of United States casket purchases. Legal counsel will be
present at all meetings of the
joint venture and acceptance of an antitrust compliance policy will
be a condition of membership in
the joint venture.

NSM accounts for 6.3 percent of funeral home locations in the United
States. In 1997, casket
costs accounted for 16.91 percent of the cost of an adult funeral.

Under the Department's Business Review Procedure, an organization may
submit a proposed
action to the Antitrust Division and receive a statement as to
whether the Division will challenge the
action under the antitrust laws.

A file containing the business review request and the Department's
response may be examined in
the Antitrust Documents Group of the Antitrust Division, Suite 215,
Liberty Place, 325 7th Street,
N.W., Department of Justice, Washington, D.C. 20004. After a 30-day
period, the documents
supporting the business review will be added to the file.

###

99-009
(end copy) so, after pondering that, any ideas come to mind.....
but time will tell...

Message cf248948ImK-3792-716-00.htm, number 238, was posted on Fri May 19 at 11:55:56
Help! ACRA or NCRA?

ValDan
oldeworldcasket@aol.com

What's the difference between ACRA (American Casket Retailers Association) and NCRA (National Casket Retailers Association)?

Message cf56874dLmM-3792-1125-00.htm, number 239, was posted on Fri May 19 at 18:45:46
Gasketed not Protective

webmaster
casketstores@email.com

www.cfsaa.org/news/may2000.htm

and lawsuits. Another site www.xroads.com/~funerals/-A12Bas1.htm

(In reply to retailer assocations - I believe if you check out the full pages of the sites and email me directly with any specific questions, it would be better.)We are two different associations, with the main goals being to inform the public of the choices they have, and to assist in preservation of those rights to choose.
Also - I don't believe anyone claims to be an expert. All questions are welcome.

A survey of funeral home prices in the Texas area, Jan. 2000
www.corridor.net/ambis/2000_Chart.html

Message cdbcc034S0U-3792-1298+00.htm, number 240, was posted on Fri May 19 at 21:37:48
in reply to cf248948ImK-3792-716-00.htm
Re: The Baby on the NCRA & ACRA

Retailer
retail@nowhere.net

The ACRA is just one retailer's attempt to market caskets to other retailers. The dues are zip just like the bennys!

AS STATED BEFORE BE YOUR OWN MAN, USE YOUR OWN HEAD AND WATCH OUT FOR THE VULTURES!  WHEN YOUR IN THIS BUSINESS THERE ARE NO INSTRUCTION MANUALS.

Message cf577cb6CZt-3793-860+00.htm, number 241, was posted on Sat May 20 at 14:20:22
in reply to cf248948ImK-3792-716-00.htm
Re: Help! ACRA & NCRA?

savcash
a-team@stratos.net

If you have done your homework, most funeral homes belong to more than
one org. (maybe as many as five or better) I can't say it hurts them -
but rather they gain some benefit from the exposure. HOWEVER~ myself,
as a business person, I can list no less than that amount too - (because we have more than one division in our firm ) but I
also know where I want to put the time and the effort.
It doesn't have to be one or the other - and while you do have to be sure of where your priorities lie - just be sure you don't listen to
"Retailer" who has to be thought of as the type that will try to divide and conquer, by lies.
Side note:  Retailer, why not use John Doe or Jane Doe as before -
I see clear through you - but also see you have matured some. Guess
there may be hope for you yet ;-)Are you learning from the school of hard knocks too? (like you suggest it is without the instr/manual)

Message cf568420CZt-3793-1216-00.htm, number 242, was posted on Sat May 20 at 20:15:59
totten trusts, wills 101

savcash
a-team@stratos.net

Crash course in wills and trusts are at: www.mtpalermo.com/
The most common way is the Totton trust
site.health-center.com/senior/legal/assets_and_tru/tottrleg.htm
www.courttv.com/legalhelp/elder/wills/trusts.html
www.missionfcu.org/htdocs/trust.html
planners.net/demo2/plan/estate4.htm (click this simple one too)

It kills me that some people buy the overpriced - WITH interest charged "package" deal from the funeral director, not knowing that they are now paying an interest rate on a purchase that may be used years from now, instead of earning the interest themselves, at a bank in the totten trust.
(copy)From the Halt page at: www.halt.org/homepage.html
(use search for more information)
Trusts come in many forms for different purposes. A Totten Trust is the formal name for a bank
account trust. It is nothing more than joint ownership of a bank account by two or more people. It is
created simply by declaring in writing that your bank account is a trust for someone else. This is done
on the bank account registration form. Your bank clerk can help you with the appropriate papers.
As the trustee, you can spend the money as you wish but when you die, the money will go directly to
your beneficiary and need not go through probate.
(another, from AARP, in Az) Contact legal advise for your state.
www.povertylaw.org/hotline/state%20hotlines/Arizona/bank%20accounts%20-%20az.htm
(some banks give them another name, check yours)
Copy).www.vbnv.com/fdic.htm#23-29          

Insured Deposits:
 Your Questions.
  FDIC Answers.

                   Valley Bank is a FDIC Member bank, which provides added protection for you
                   and your deposited funds. This section provides information about insurance
                   coverage provided by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) to
                   depositors of insured banks and insured savings associations and answers many of
                   the commonly-asked questions in nontechnical terms.

                   The FDIC is an independent agency of the U.S. Government. It was established by
                   Congress in 1933 to insure bank deposits, help maintain sound conditions in our
                   banking system, and protect the nation's money supply in case of financial institution
                   failure. In 1989, the FDIC was given the additional duty of insuring deposits in
                   savings associations. As a result, the FDIC insures deposits in banks, using the Bank
                   Insurance Fund (BIF), and insures deposits in savings associations, using the Savings
                   Association Insurance Fund (SAIF). Both BIF and SAIF are backed by the full faith
                   and credit of the United States.
                                   16-22

                      Testamentary (Payable-On-Death)
                      Accounts
                                    What is a testamentary account?

                   A testamentary account is an account that evidences an
                   intention that the funds will belong to a named beneficiary
                   upon the death of the owner (grantor or depositor) of the
                   testamentary account. Testamentary accounts are sometimes
                   known as tentative or "Totten" trust accounts, revocable trust
                   accounts, or "payable-on-death" accounts.

                   24. How are testamentary accounts insured?

                   Testamentary accounts make up another legal ownership category
                   and are, therefore, insured separately from single ownership
                   accounts and joint accounts of the beneficiary or the owner.
                   In order to qualify for this separate insurance coverage,
                   however, a testamentary account must meet all of the following
                   requirements:

                        The named beneficiary must be the owner's spouse, child,
                        grandchild, parent, brother, or sister. ("Child" includes
                        a biological child, adopted child, and stepchild of the
                        owner. "Grandchild" includes a biological child, adopted
                        child, and stepchild of any of the owner's children.
                        "Parent" includes a biological parent, adoptive parent,
                        and stepparent of the owner. "Brother" includes a full
                        brother, half brother, brother through adoption, and
                        stepbrother. "Sister" includes a full sister, half
                        sister, sister through adoption, and stepsister.)
                        The owner's intention that, upon his or her death, the
                        funds shall belong to the named beneficiary must be shown
                        in the title of the account using commonly accepted terms
                        such as "in trust for," "as trustee for," or "payable on
                        death." These terms may be abbreviated as "ITF," "ATF,"
                        or "POD."
                        The beneficiaries must be specifically identified by name
                        in the deposit account records of the depository
                        institution.

                   Each owner meeting these requirements is insured up to
                   $100,000 per qualifying beneficiary at each insured
                   institution.

                   25. Can a testamentary account have more than $100,000 in
                   insurance coverage?

                   Yes. If a testamentary account is maintained by co-owners,
                   insurance will be determined as if each co-owner maintained a
                   separate testamentary account for each beneficiary. The
                   co-owners' interests are deemed to be equal unless otherwise
                   stated in the deposit account records. If there are several
                   beneficiaries, their interests are deemed to be equal unless
                   otherwise specified in the deposit account records.

                   Example of Insurance for Testamentary Accounts
(end copy here, doing homework on this type of Account -and leaving
instructions to that named person on what you want, and where, how, etc) might just be the ticket!

Message 98a3cd14ImK-3793-1335-00.htm, number 243, was posted on Sat May 20 at 22:15:06
Bones, Bugs & Batesville

ValDan
oldeworldcasket@aol.com

www.funerals.org/bates.htm

Warning! Not to be read over dinner!

ChuckG
cgalvin0970@my-deja.com

Betty,
  Pre-need funeral funding is NOT an investment, nor should it be treated as such.  It is merely a vehicle to cover the cost of a future event.  For example, life insurance is a TERRIBLE investment, but no financial planner worth his salt would ever recommend going without it.  Estate planning involves many aspects, and no two estates that are planned the same way.

  The majority of people who see me about funeral pre-funding are doing so as a part of a "spend down" process when entering a nursing home.  A "totten trust" or "revocable trust" does absolutely NOTHING to protect the consumer from having those funds taken by the state.  This can only be done with an "irrevocable trust" or an "irrevocably assigned" life insurance policy.  Both of which (at least in my state) can only be obtained through a licensed funeral establishment.
 
  Even if the consumer is not interested in shielding these funds from a spend down, a totten trust is a "non-guaranteed" vehicle, as opposed to a "guaranteed" contract that can be obtained through a licensed funeral establishment.  So, instead of purchasing tomorrow's expense at today's cost, your money is sitting in some little pass-book savings account, while you hope that the interest that the bank decides to pay you will cover a future cost.  Let me guess, you got this advice from a bank, right??

  Don't get me wrong, If I didn't have to offer "guaranteed" pre-funding, I wouldn't.  As a businessman, it shouldn't be my responsibility to save your money for you, and then assume the burden if it didn't keep up with my cost of doing business at the time you need my services. I would much prefer that the consumer would bear that burden and use a "totten trust", however, because most of my colleages offer guaranteed contracts, I must also offer them to stay competetive.

  Betty, the advice that you are so foolishly giving people will end up costing them thousands in lost assets in many circumstances.  In any event, people should seek the advice of a qualified financial planner and/or attorney to decide which funeral pre-funding plan meets their particular needs.

ChuckG

Message cdbcc5181bg-3794-775+00.htm, number 246, was posted on Sun May 21 at 12:54:40
in reply to cf24ef4bImK-3791-495-00.htm
Re: New To Biz! Batesville vs Dot-Com

ChuckG
cgalvin0970@my-deja.com

>We are just entering this business...

  Good luck on your new endeavor!  As you will soon find out, it will not be easy.  Retailers are entering the deathcare industry at possibly the worst time in history.  Funeral trends are moving away from the "traditional" funeral patterns of the past.  Consumers are choosing more personalized "services" and purchasing less funeral "stuff" than they did in the past.  This does not bode well for any funeral industry segment that offers no services and depends completely on the sale of funeral "stuff" to survive.

  Also, the very government regulation that made it possible for retailers to come into existence, i.e. the prohibition of handling fees and the prohibition of discounts, may prove to be the "nail in the coffin" for retailers.  Funeral homes are no longer able to depend on the profit earned from the casket sale to recoup staff, facility, and overhead costs.  They are finding that these costs must be shifted to where they belong:  namely, in the fees charged for these services.  However, the retailer does not have this ability, and must include the staff, rent, and other overhead costs in the retail price of the casket.

> In our endeavor to "start-up" our business, we began contacting casket manufacturers, of course one of these was Batesville Casket Company.

  I own and operate a small independent funeral home.  Although I started out using several manufacturers, I now use Batesville almost exclusively for many reasons.  Only one of which (in my opinion) is their superior quality.  I find that Batesville has the best customer (funeral director) support, and the most knowledgeable and professional employees, reps, and delivery personnel.  I am also told that Batesville employees enjoy some of the best employment benefits in the industry.  This company is geared heavily toward supporting the individual funeral home through the many and various programs they offer.  Showroom design and building, preneed programs, and continuing education programs are among the many resources that they offer to help the small funeral home serve its families better.

  Do I pay more for this?  You bet!  Do I pay more than the large corporate outfit that orders caskets by the truckload?  Absolutely...Volume talks, that's business.

  All of this being said, I am not sure what you think a manufacturer like Batesville can do for you anyway.  Although the quality and workmanship of the "big three" suppliers is said to be superior, there are many in your business who would disagree.  So as a casket retailer, even if they did sell to you,  you would be paying a higher wholesale price for support resources that would be of no use to you or your customers

ChuckG

savcash
a-team@stratos.net

>Betty,
>   Pre-need funeral funding is NOT an investment, nor should it be treated as such.  It is merely a vehicle to cover the cost of a future event.  For example, life insurance is a TERRIBLE investment, but no financial planner worth his salt would ever recommend going without it.  Estate planning involves many aspects, and no two estates that are planned the same way.

>   The majority of people who see me about funeral pre-funding are doing so as a part of a "spend down" process when entering a nursing home.  A "totten trust" or "revocable trust" does absolutely NOTHING to protect the consumer from having those funds taken by the state.  This can only be done with an "irrevocable trust" or an "irrevocably assigned" life insurance policy.  Both of which (at least in my state) can only be obtained through a licensed funeral establishment.
------Hi Chuck:
First, thanks, it is always good to hear from both sides. Rest assured, I would hope anyone reading anything on the internet would ALWAYS get the advice of professionals when it comes to money. (Sorry, in my book even a funeral director does not quaify for that)
More on the Totten trust (copy)
A Trust Account

         Who Owns It?

         A trust account can be a sole or joint account. But the deposit agreement says
         that when the sole owner or last joint owner dies, the bank pays the balance in
         the account to a named "death beneficiary."

         These accounts are often called Totten trusts or P.O.D. (pay on death)
         accounts.

         While the named owner of a trust account is alive, the naming of a death
         beneficiary does not change who owns the money in the account. The owner
         does. The owner does not need to keep any money in the account. The
         beneficiary has no rights until the owner dies.

         Who Can Use It?

         Only the owner(s) can use it.

         What if the Owner Dies?

         When the sole or last surviving joint owner dies, any money in the account is
         paid directly to the designated death beneficiary. This money does not become
         part of the estate. Creditors of the estate cannot reach these funds.

         If the account is jointly owned, the surviving owner(s) gets the money just as in
         the ordinary joint account discussed above. The beneficiary gets nothing until
         the last joint owner dies.
(end copy from www.povertylaw.org/hotline/state%20hotlines/Arizona/bank%20accounts%20-%20az.htm) and that is Az. (Note it says the state or creditors can't touch it, yet some states might be different ??
It is just my opinion here, but for my money, (yes life insur. is not an investment, nor is the Totten trust) but if I wanted to be sure that there would be funds to cover the funeral costs, I'd use that trust, not spending them with a funeral home. By the time I'd pay the interest on the "note" at the home, vs gaining the freedom to keep my own interest and not having to worry if that home was going to go out of biz, be sold, or whatever- the dif in funds would be only peace and money in my pocket. But, of course, I could be wrong for others choice- here is another site (freebie lawyers, but looking to get chosen for the "service")freeadvice.com/law/5402us.htm
And from Money.com money.findlaw.com/topics/estate/articles.html
Not taken by the state, again (probate you mean?)
                                             
                                                                         

 Consumer Law Center : Legal Topics: Estate Planning: Articles

 Totten Trust

 A type of bank account in which one person deposits money in his own name but holds it in
 trust for another is known as a Totten trust. Unlike the creator of other kinds of trusts, the
 person who sets up a Totten trust is free to do anything with the money in the account. She
 does not have to be concerned about preserving the funds for the beneficiary's use or notifying
 the beneficiary of the trust's existence.

 When the person who established the Totten trust dies, the funds in
 it automatically become the property of the beneficiary without
 having to be probated. Therefore, Totten trusts are frequently used
 to avoid probate. Ask your bank for information about establishing a
 Totten trust in your state. See also Probate; Trust; Will
(end copy)

>  Let me guess, you got this advice from a bank, right??
----I've never actually gotten your side of the information, down pat. You do charge interest on this purchase, prior to the need, don't you?


>   Don't get me wrong, If I didn't have to offer "guaranteed" pre-funding, I wouldn't.  As a businessman, it shouldn't be my responsibility to save your money for you, and then assume the burden if it didn't keep up with my cost of doing business at the time you need my services. I would much prefer that the consumer would bear that burden and use a "totten trust", however, because most of my colleages offer guaranteed contracts, I must also offer them to stay competetive.
------Maybe I will move to another state, change my mind about what
I want in a funeral, or the home that I want it in. I think my way is
far better for those reasons alone, not to mention the others.
Can I get a full refund if any of the above happen?

>    In any event, people should seek the advice of a qualified financial planner and/or attorney to decide which funeral pre-funding plan meets their particular needs.
---Ditto
But there is not enough ready information about this Totten Trust on the internet. Much like the FROP rule, most people haven't a clue that it exists. So if you took it as advice, I posted it as a look see for all - to learn about it. To have other choices.
Let me know about that refund, if that is the case, people should know that too.

Message cf5684a9CZt-3794-1029+00.htm, number 248, was posted on Sun May 21 at 17:09:43
in reply to cdbcc5181bg-3794-775+00.htm
Re^2: New To Biz! Batesville vs Dot-Com

savcash
a-team@stratos.net

(And I'm sure Dan & others may be glad you took the time to write and inform them as you did)

If ever, Batesville became Mexican made, shifting the majority of
units from there, made NOT by Americans, would you still buy them?
(And the only reason of course, for any firm to even consider the move, would be the cost of the labor, but bet no discount on the caskets at all)Even if there were a STEEP discount, if they had been one of my suppliers, and they made that move, (keeping the same made quality)I'd drop them like a hotcake. Would you, or would you still buy from them, with or without a discount in the units?

PS> There are some problems of the US that could be solved if more people bought USA made product. I have nothing against others, it is just I am proud to be an American, and want to do biz with the same -
and keep our people working, earning a living. Not others.

Message cdbcc0a8ImK-3794-1198-00.htm, number 249, was posted on Sun May 21 at 19:57:37
A Glimpse Into The Future?

ValDan
oldeworldcasket@aol.com

We're unable to locate article on web to provide hyperlink so here are the highlights from the "hardcopy" of the magazine:


"Retail tribute centers are picking up steam. We all anticpate the Internet to have an impact."

"Move away from the preoccupation with caskets and into operational issues."

"Currently, Internet and storefront caskets represent about 35,000 caskets annually. But this area is growing. Within the past several months several new entries hit the .com world and we expect more."

"Overall consumers want more information, but they don't want to think about our topic. Batesville believes that this contradiction poses the greatest challenge."

"I think that, in most markets, we can expect the following:
- Continued moderation of the direct disposition trend as merchandising becomes more sophisticated and as funeral directors improve their ability to help consumers explore options.
- Successful funeral homes will find ways to appear more user friendly.
- Retail approaches will be tried and may or may not succeed.
- Branding will become important.
- Funeral directors will become more sophisticated in adapting presentations and options to different types of consumers.
- Consumers will be more aggressive in obtaining the information they want - when they want it.
- Alternatives, including budget and virtual funeral homes, will continue to proliferate.
- Preneed will increase in popularity among consumers as a means of obtaining information, controlling the price and personalizing the form of the funeral.
- Funeral directors will become more responsive to the consumer's need to have them be assertive in the process."

"As with most industries at this stage of a cycle, the waiting has begun for the thought leaders and pioneers to lead the way."

"Overall, I would interpret the current cycle as a period of acceptance that continued success will requre some degree of sophistication and adaptation. The mood itself is a little calmer. Yet, there is still a mild urgency."

"I continue to hold to the belief that a key strategy for the future is for funeral directors to assume a professional advisory role much like that of a lawyer or doctor. The over reliance on merchandise systems to control sales average will eventually backfire as consumers try to comprehend the process in an effort to meet needs in which they have little experience. A very real challenge for any industry is the dysfunctional disconnect that often occurs between seller and buyer. Sellers think of products while buyers think of activities (what must be done). The casket, to the consumer, is an incidental part of the process. It is not the bundle of activities. This traditional and obvious disconnect between funeral director and family is about to become a serious liability as the Internet provides access to greater information than ever before. Funeral directors who claim they know their families should, in my opinion, become objects of derision. True professionals think in terms of process - not product."

"With the proliferating diversity of competitive options now appearing in so many mid- to large-size cities I believe that those firms who want to be a major player for the future will have to address the issues of infrastructure and sophistication. In an industry experiencing rapid transition bricks and mortar are often a liability."

[ This message was edited on Sun May 21 by the author ]

Message cdbcc6261bg-3794-1357+00.htm, number 250, was posted on Sun May 21 at 22:37:22
in reply to cf5684a9CZt-3794-1015+00.htm
Re^3: totten trusts, wills 101

ChuckG
cgalvin0970@my-deja.com

  Actually Betty, along with attorneys and financial planners, licensed funeral directors are among the few professionals who are authorized to assist consumers with setting up funeral trusts without engaging in the unauthorized practice of law.  Look it up.

>(Note it says the state or creditors can't touch it, yet some states might be different ??

  In the case of a spend down, the claims of creditors are not the problem.  The state can, AND WILL take these funds and the family will be back to square one.  The survivors will end up having to pay for funeral arrangements that were supposed to have been already saved for by the deceased.  Believe me Betty, these people always come to their funeral director looking to have us fix their mess when they find out that the POD account that someone told them to set up has been taken by the state to pay for nursing home expenses.

>but if I wanted to be sure that there would be funds to cover the funeral costs, I'd use that trust, not spending them with a funeral home.

  As I said before, as a businessman I would rather have you bear that risk too.  But by the very definition of a "guaranteed preneed contract", making sure that there are enough funds to cover funeral costs is the funeral director's worry, not yours.

>and not having to worry if that home was going to go out of biz, be sold, or whatever-

  The funeral home might go out of business or be sold with, or without your trust account.  Your money is still in the bank that the funeral home designated as their escrow agent, and in all likelihood, your contract would be sold to, and honored by the successor to the original funeral home.  If it is not honored by the successor, you are no worse off than if you had used a totten trust.

>You do charge interest on this purchase, prior to the need, don't you?

  I guess I don't understand your question.  The only interest that I charge is on outstanding balances after I have performed the services.

>------Maybe I will move to another state, change my mind about what
>I want in a funeral, or the home that I want it in. I think my way is
>far better for those reasons alone, not to mention the others.

Sure, a totten trust has benefits in some cases, but it also has some large drawbacks.  For the majority of people who see me about preplanning, a totten trust or POD account is useless.  Just ask any elder law attoney.

>Can I get a full refund if any of the above happen?

  My funeral home refunds 100% plus accrued interest. But, my state allows me to keep 10% of the original trusted amount to cover my administrative costs of setting up and maintaining the trust and it's records if I so choose.  Each state is different.

>But there is not enough ready information about this Totten Trust on the internet.

  Betty, I have found that the Internet is a good source for A LOT of information.  However, it is NOT a good source for GOOD information.  You might find some bit of info that will be of great value to you, but you are also just as likely to get wrong information too.  You should take anything that you read on the Internet, including my posts, as FREE ADVICE...and WORTH EVERY PENNY!

ChuckG

Message 98a3c2cf1bg-3794-1376+00.htm, number 251, was posted on Sun May 21 at 22:55:39
in reply to cf5684a9CZt-3794-1029+00.htm
Re^3: New To Biz! Batesville vs Dot-Com

ChuckG
cgalvin0970@my-deja.com

  If the quality, customer support, etc. all remained superior to other American made suppliers?  Yup.  If an American worker or industry can't compete with a foreign worker or industry, we are doing ourselves no favor by purchasing an inferior product just because it is made in the USA.  We become less competitive as a nation by doing so.

>(And the only reason of course, for any firm to even consider the move, would be the cost of the labor, but bet no discount on the caskets at all)Even if there were a STEEP discount, if they had been one of my suppliers, and they made that move, (keeping the same made quality)I'd drop them like a hotcake. Would you, or would you still buy from them, with or without a discount in the units?

  My first priority is the level of quality and support for the products offered through my funeral home.  Next comes being able to obtain that desired level of quality and support at the lowest cost possible.  If this can be done by a Mexican company, then so be it.  They get my business.  If the level of quality and support can only be met by American workers at a higher cost, then the American manufacturer gets my business.

ChuckG

ValDan
oldeworldcasket@aol.com

vbiweb.champlain.edu/famsa/frop.htm

See also:  Issues of Social Concern at:

vbiweb.champlain.edu/famsa/social.htm

[ This message was edited on Mon May 22 by the author ]

Message cf568745CZt-3795-909+00.htm, number 254, was posted on Mon May 22 at 15:11:14
in reply to cdbcc0a8ImK-3794-1198+00.htm
Kates, and MSNBC

savcash
a-team@stratos.net

              May 21 — Three years ago this month my brother,
              Mitchell, died. When I got the call telling me my
              dear brother had departed, I doubled over as if I
              had been sucker punched in the stomach. I felt
              responsible for his death.



                               THE DAY BEFORE Mitchell died I was supposed to
                        pick him up to spend the Memorial Day weekend at my
                        house. But I ended up working late. Too tired to drive the
                        45 miles to get him, I called and said I’d pick him up the
                        next morning.
                               The next morning Mitchell died from a massive seizure.
                        He had epilepsy. He was 32 and died alone.
                               The grief and guilt felt like someone was pushing a
                        50-pound weight down on my heart. I could hardly breathe.
                        I couldn’t stop blaming myself.
                               If only I had picked Mitchell up as I had planned. If
                        only he had been with me then I could have gotten him
                        medical help.
                               If only.
                               Despite all my guilt tripping, when it came time to make
                        the arrangements for Mitchell’s “Homecoming,” as they call
                        it in my faith, I tried not to let my heartache get in the way of
                        planning a simple, low-budget funeral.
                               
                        DOSE OF HOMESPUN WISDOM
    Even in my most
    mournful moment
    I knew the amount
    of money I spent
    on my brother’s
    funeral was no
    reflection of my
    feelings for him.

                               I was following my grandmother’s example. Big Mama
                        was determined not to go broke putting my grandfather
                        away after he died from lung cancer.
                               I’ll never forget the exchange she had with the funeral
                        director. When he pulled out the casket catalog, he
                        immediately flipped to the pages depicting expensive
                        caskets of polished hardwood lined with fine fabric.
                               Big Mama didn’t pay him any mind. She flipped the
                        pages back to your basic boxes. She chose a plain, gray,
                        metal casket that cost about $700.
                               “Of course that cheaper model will do,” the director
                        said. “But don’t you think your husband deserves the best?”

                                                        “Lee Kelly got the
                                                 best I could give him when
                                                 he was alive,” Big Mama
                                                 said. “Besides, he’s dead.
                                                 He won’t know if I’m
                                                 burying him in a pine box
                                                 or a bed sheet.”
                               The director tried another tactic. He switched from
                        “deserving” to “preserving.” He recommended a
                        higher-priced casket that could help preserve my
                        grandfather’s body.
                               “Surely, you want to protect your husband’s remains,”
                        he said.
                               “Why? Will he know when it rains?” she asked.
                               In the end my grandfather and brother had dignified but
                        inexpensive funerals. Even in my most mournful moment I
                        knew the amount of money I spent on my brother’s funeral
                        was no reflection of my feelings for him.
                               
                        GRIEF CONSUMES GOOD SENSE
       Advertisement

                   






                               Perhaps at no other time are consumers more
                        vulnerable than when a loved one passes away.
                               Who wants to comparison shop for funeral homes,
                        caskets or burial plots when you’re grieving?
                               And that’s exactly what some providers in the funeral
                        industry count on — consumers too consumed with sorrow
                        to be concerned about saving money.
                               Surely there are many decent funeral directors out
                        there. But there are also unethical death care providers just
                        waiting to prey on the bereaved. They withhold price lists,
                        overcharge for caskets and lie about what services or
                        products are required by law.
                               For instance, a casket is not required for cremation, as
                        some will imply. And some still try to charge a casket
                        handling fee if you provide your own casket from an outside
                        source, although that’s illegal under federal law.
                               Even scrupulous providers often persuade
                        grief-stricken relatives to spend far more than is probably
                        necessary.
                               Funerals are now one of the largest purchases most
                        consumers will make and can cost from $5,000 to $10,000.
                        Caskets alone can cost thousands of dollars with the
                        average costing about $2,000.
                               
                        KEEP CONTROL OF MONEY
    There is nothing
    disrespectful in
    living — or dying
    — within your
    means.

                               Some people try to spare their relatives grief by
                        prepaying for funeral and burial services. Yet problems are
                        common with these contracts, according to consumer
                        advocates.
                               Prepay plans are often nonrefundable or
                        nontransferable, meaning consumers can’t switch mortuaries
                        or change their minds. Hidden fees later can mean mourning
                        relatives find they have to pay more money when their loved
                        one dies. In the worst cases, the mortician may go out of
                        business and the money disappears.

                                                        As an alternative,
                                                 AARP urges consumers
                                                 to put their burial
                                                 preferences in writing and
                                                 keep control of their
                                                 money. Instead of a
                                                 prepaid plan it suggests
                        earmarking a certificate of deposit or life insurance policy or
                        opening a designated savings account jointly with a family
                        member who has right of survivorship so funds are not
                        taxed.
                               But what often drives prices up, however, is our own
                        guilt.
                               There is nothing disrespectful in living — or dying —
                        within your means.
                               My grandmother lived several years after my
                        grandfather died and the money she saved on his funeral
                        helped support her.
                               As Big Mama said, “It doesn’t make good sense to
                        bury good money in the ground.”
                               (end story)

Message cf568406LmM-3799-781-00.htm, number 255, was posted on Fri May 26 at 13:02:01
From fancy caskets, to cardboard boxes

webmaster
casketstores@email.com

www.post-gazette.com:80/magazine/20000523life9.asp Life support, the hard sell and the smart reply  -Life Support: The high cost of dying

                You can't take it with you, so they'll want it before you go

dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000523/en/people-cartland_2.html
Queen of romance to be buried in cardboard coffin

And we have been listed on the About Com (heavily promoted site)search and special link on their Funeral, death and dying page.
dying.about.com/health/dying/msub8.htm?terms=funeral+information

Message cf568406LmM-3799-800-00.htm, number 256, was posted on Fri May 26 at 13:21:20
From fancy caskets to cardboard boxes

webmaster
casketstores@email.com

But here are a few sites going from one extreme - Fancy casket, the last chance to live it up (But you have to get them thru a broker, they don't sell directly to casket stores, just yet anyway. NOT a recommendation here for the ART casket line) www.sltrib.com:80/05252000/utah/52133.htm

www.post-gazette.com:80/magazine/20000523life9.asp Life support, the hard sell and the smart reply  -Life Support: The high cost of dying

                You can't take it with you, so they'll want it before you go

dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000523/en/people-cartland_2.html
Queen of romance to be buried in cardboard coffin

And we have been listed on the About Com (heavily promoted site)search and special link on their Funeral, death and dying page.
dying.about.com/health/dying/msub8.htm?terms=funeral+information

Message 18481ddcWzc-3799-809-00.htm, number 257, was posted on Fri May 26 at 13:28:48
Joke

Greenwood Casket Co
greenwood@writeme.com

Message cc601851PRl-3800-64+00.htm, number 258, was posted on Sat May 27 at 01:04:12
in reply to cf568406LmM-3799-800-00.htm
Re: From fancy caskets to cardboard boxes

De'Lores P. Arline
delarl@usa.net

Representative called me and sent catalog.

When asked why the change of business policy, he responded that the funeral directors "just didn't get it".

Personally, I'm not surprised, just more evidence of the prima donna syndrome of the funeral industry, choosing what's right for the consumer.

>The jury is still out on the funeral rule review, when FTC  releases more information.  
>Their statement (Committee on Aging, funeral testimony) of April, 2000 www.ftc.gov/os/2000/04/funeraltestimony.htm

>But here are a few sites going from one extreme - Fancy casket, the last chance to live it up (But you have to get them thru a broker, they don't sell directly to casket stores, just yet anyway. NOT a recommendation here for the ART casket line) www.sltrib.com:80/05252000/utah/52133.htm

>www.post-gazette.com:80/magazine/20000523life9.asp Life support, the hard sell and the smart reply  -Life Support: The high cost of dying

>                 You can't take it with you, so they'll want it before you go

>dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000523/en/people-cartland_2.html
>Queen of romance to be buried in cardboard coffin

>And we have been listed on the About Com (heavily promoted site)search and special link on their Funeral, death and dying page.
>dying.about.com/health/dying/msub8.htm?terms=funeral+information
>

Message cc601851PRl-3800-65+00.htm, number 259, was posted on Sat May 27 at 01:04:59
in reply to cf568406LmM-3799-800-00.htm
Re: From fancy caskets to cardboard boxes

De'Lores P. Arline
delarl@usa.net

Representative called me and sent catalog.

When asked why the change of business policy, he responded that the funeral directors "just didn't get it".

Personally, I'm not surprised, just more evidence of the prima donna syndrome of the funeral industry, choosing what's right for the consumer.

>The jury is still out on the funeral rule review, when FTC  releases more information.  
>Their statement (Committee on Aging, funeral testimony) of April, 2000 www.ftc.gov/os/2000/04/funeraltestimony.htm

>But here are a few sites going from one extreme - Fancy casket, the last chance to live it up (But you have to get them thru a broker, they don't sell directly to casket stores, just yet anyway. NOT a recommendation here for the ART casket line) www.sltrib.com:80/05252000/utah/52133.htm

>www.post-gazette.com:80/magazine/20000523life9.asp Life support, the hard sell and the smart reply  -Life Support: The high cost of dying

>                 You can't take it with you, so they'll want it before you go

>dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000523/en/people-cartland_2.html
>Queen of romance to be buried in cardboard coffin

>And we have been listed on the About Com (heavily promoted site)search and special link on their Funeral, death and dying page.
>dying.about.com/health/dying/msub8.htm?terms=funeral+information
>

Message cdbcc8a41bg-3801-818+00.htm, number 260, was posted on Sun May 28 at 13:38:07
in reply to cc601851PRl-3800-65+00.htm
Re^2: From fancy caskets to cardboard boxes

ChuckG
cgalvin0970@my-deja.com

  I am surprised that White Light is now finding this to be the case.  I spoke with them at some length when they itroduced their new product at the NFDA convention in Boston. They said that their caskets were being extremely well received by the industry, particularly considering that New England is one of the most traditionally oriented parts of the country.   I have heard nothing but positive remarks from my colleagues since that time.  Their coverage in the industry press, as well as the mainstream press has been fantastic too.
 
  When I spoke with my Artcasket supplier about two months ago, they said that sales were going reasonably well for a product of this type.  They have even recently expanded their selection to include several more designs, as well as those already offered.
 
  I hope that White Light's new attitude isn't a sign that they aren't in it for the long run.  It would make me uncomfortable selling one of these units on a pre-need basis.

ChuckG

Message 98a3ccd6D0x-3801-1233-00.htm, number 261, was posted on Sun May 28 at 20:33:20
Memorial Day an excellent marketing opportunity

Charleston Discount Caskets
cdcasket@usa.net

Message cdbcc88a1bg-3801-1391+00.htm, number 262, was posted on Sun May 28 at 23:10:32
in reply to 98a3ccd6D0x-3801-1233-00.htm
Re: Memorial Day an excellent marketing opportunity

ChuckG
cgalvin0970@my-deja.com

  Nothing says "we care" quite like handing out sales literature to mourners while they visit the cemetery, right?  Great job!

ChuckG

Message cf577ca2CZt-3802-928+00.htm, number 263, was posted on Mon May 29 at 15:29:26
in reply to cdbcc88a1bg-3801-1391+00.htm
Re^2: Memorial Day an excellent marketing opportunity

savcash
a-team@stratos.net

>   Nothing says "we care" quite like handing out sales literature to mourners while they visit the cemetery, right?  Great job!
-----No dif. than nurseries selling flowers, urns, flags for same.
Would think they wouldn't stll be classified as mourners - and for sure, if anyone objected they'd let him know, guess then he wouldn't have returned the next year. I think it's better too, than mass mailing coupons like some funeral homes do.....got quite a few of those lately.

Our news release of the same frop page we just put up - from post back on May 1st, and photo of one of the stock cars we sponser near bottom of page, center

search.news.yahoo.com/search/news?p=frop&hc=0&hs=1

ps. Because we do car shows and such, word must be getting around-
someone called from Ca. today, wants to buy a fiberglass casket to
make the "Munster's Drag-u-la Hot Rod casket" take off from the t.v.
show to enter all over in car shows, hot rod exhibts, parades, etc. Seems he tried two funeral homes to buy the casket, and they told him they couldn't sell him a casket unless someone died......(I've seen them used in car show entries before-
tastefully done, so you might see A Team Master's name on this unit
as partly a sponsor too, great advertisement!)I'll put up a photo if it turns out that way.
Thanks for news on White Light De'Lores, perhaps going to get the
Last Ride casket that has the winning flags on it....

Message ce9cf221RN9-3803-1002+00.htm, number 264, was posted on Tue May 30 at 16:42:34
in reply to cdbcc8a41bg-3801-818+00.htm
Re^3: From fancy caskets to cardboard boxes

robin
jtbod1@netscape.net

>   I hope that White Light's new attitude isn't a sign that they aren't in it for the long run.  It would make me uncomfortable selling one of these units on a pre-need basis.

>ChuckG

This is what drives me crazy in this industry.  You have unsubstantiated comment and innuendo (as per De'Lores' original statement re the "just didn't get it") followed by Chuck's reaction, above, that results in pre-need concern.  Neither of these have to occur if both the retailers and the funeral directors would simply do their own due diligence.
 
By this I mean:  Call the top individual of a company if you have concern or have heard a rumor.  Read and research.  If the company is public, go to freedgar.com and read everything you can on their reports.  There are dozens of additional resources of which I would be happy to suggest and/or provide.  But, in any case, do yourself a favor and do not print topical (or off-topic, for that matter) discussion that you are relaying by "assuming", via the grapevine, or merely wish to denigrate the other party.  It helps neither the retailers nor the f.d's to read the petty crap I see on the various BB's.  

With that said, let me clear up the matter of the Artcaskets.com's White Light products.  I called Pat Fant, the CEO, and simply asked the question of distribution policies.  Any of you can do the same.  The info will follow in the next post.  In the meantime, please read the most recent press release from the company, that may allow you additional insight as to company policy.

And, before I copy the press release, the statement of "funeral directors just don't get it" is crap and untrue.  More about that next post as well.
---------------------
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE                          CONTACT:
May 17, 2000                              Dennis Sternitzky
                                               Patrick Fant
                                               214-741-6151
                                                     www.artcaskets.com

WHITELIGHT PAYS FUNERAL HOMES FOR SERVICE

Pin-the-Pillow Program  
supports new affinity marketing initiative


DALLAS, TX - WhiteLight, the Dallas-based creator of the patented Art Casket®, announces an innovative funeral home rewards program that bridges the gap between casket seller and funeral service provider.

Most funeral homes are concerned about the rising availability of direct-to-consumer funeral merchandise because this channel of distribution may threaten profits.  Respecting the value provided by funeral professionals, WhiteLight has created a new  co-op fund that rewards funeral homes when they provide service to families who have purchased WhiteLight affinity program caskets directly from the company.

A new line of WhiteLight Art Caskets® has been created to appeal specifically to members of affinity groups that are known for their exceptional pride-in-belonging.  These distinctive theme caskets reflect specific branches of military service, university affiliation and other designs that recognize individual life achievements.  These new licensed products are being offered through professional and service organizations directly to their membership.

"By utilizing a WhiteLight Art Casket® in a service, a funeral home demonstrates our product, which promotes trial," said Patrick Fant, Co-founder /CEO of WhiteLight.  "The participating funeral home will be able to take advantage of our manufacturer's co-op fund, or they may choose discounts on over 35 WhiteLight catalog products that are not licensed to organizations."

WhiteLight Co-Founder/COO Dennis Sternitzky reports that, "since the Art Casket® is not discounted, but sold only at the retail price, WhiteLight can make this fund available to participating funeral homes.  We have named this the Pin-the-Pillow Program, because the casket is delivered to the funeral home with a redeemable certificate - of significant value - pinned to the pillow."


Page 2


"It is clear that there is room for improvement within our industry in how we provide families with the full scope of options available.  Many funeral directors want to display WhiteLight products, but are blocked from doing so because of pre-existing agreements," said Sternitzky.

"It's a win-win for everyone involved," said Fant.  "WhiteLight has developed so many new affinity caskets that it has become impractical for funeral homes to stock and display these specialty pieces.  It makes sense for us to promote these products directly and reward participating funeral homes from a marketing co-op fund.  This is a program as unique as the Art Casket® product itself," Fant continued.

WhiteLight Art Caskets® are built on domestically made 18-gauge, gasket-equipped steel shells.  Each is fitted with complementary swing-bar hardware.  By Spring 2000, the catalog available to funeral homes is scheduled to expand from 35 choices to more than 50.

WhiteLight is a corporate sponsor of the Mastering the Media Video Series, an NFDA endorsed program to help death care professionals be better prepared to relate and respond to the media.

For a complete list of WhiteLight area distributors visit www.artcaskets.com, or call toll free 877-ARTCASKET (278-2275).

                                   - 30 -

robin
jtbod1@netscape.net

>>Broker no longer needed for Art Caskets. Manufacturer, White Lights of Dallas, Texas will sell to casket stores.>>

The company CEO indicates that the White Light line is sold (1) through distributors to funeral homes, or (2) through the affinity programs noted in the press release.  With the affinity program (most commonly a service organization such as VFW), an individual can actually order the product for delivery to the funeral home.  So..."by the book", Art Caskets do NOT accept orders from retail outlets.  Go to the website to obtain the dsitributor information.

There are, of course, exceptions to every "rule".  Retail outlets with a licensed funeral director can obtain anything he or she wants:  Batesville, York, Art casket, and so on.  There is also an "after market" for these units from many funeral directors not in the retail business.  (Please note I did not say "gray market" or "underground market".)

In any case, I speak up when I see B.S. being posted.  Art Caskets executives will never comment that "funeral directors don't get it"; if a salesperson did so, he's not representing his company.  This is a good and up-n-coming company.  If you want their product, call the boss of the company...it's easy, I did...and figure out a way to stock it.  If you're not interested, OK, but don't spread crap.  

Just my 2centsworth.

Robin

Message cf56871eLmM-3803-1325-00.htm, number 267, was posted on Tue May 30 at 22:05:14
Trying to keep up with military funerals

webmaster
casketstores@email.com

Burial benefits, but only 35% of those that could, take the military benefits
www.cem.va.gov/

The history of Taps
www.west-point.org/taps/Taps.html  24 notes that Tap into emotions

 How did it become associated with funerals? The earliest official reference to the
mandatory use of Taps at military funeral ceremonies is found in the U.S. Army
Infantry Drill Regulations for 1891, although it had doubtless been used unofficially
long before that time, under its former designation Extinguish Lights.

     The first use of Taps at a funeral during the Peninsular Campaign in Virginia.
Captain John C. Tidball of Battery A, 2nd Artillery ordered it played for the burial of a
cannoneer killed in action. Since the enemy was close, he worried that the traditional 3
volleys would renew fighting.

     During the Peninsular Campaign in 1862, a soldier of Tidball's Battery - A of the
2nd Artillery - was buried at a time when the battery occupied an advanced position,
concealed in the woods. It was unsafe to fire the customary three volleys over the
grave on account of the proximity of the enemy, and it occurred to Captain Tidball that
the sounding of Taps would be the most ceremony that would be substituted. The
custom, thus originated, was taken up throughout the Army of the Potomac, and finally
confirmed by orders. Colonel James A. Moss Officer's Manual Pub. George Banta
Publishing Co. Menasha Wisconsin 1913 Elbridge Coby in Army Talk (Princeton, 1942),
p.208 states that it was B Battery of the Third Artillery that first used Taps at a
military funeral.

     This first sounding of Taps at a military funeral is commemorated in a stained glass
window at The Chapel of the Centurion (The Old Post Chapel) at Fort Monroe, Virginia.
The window, made by R. Geissler of New York and based on a painting by Sidney King,
was dedicated in 1958 and shows a bugler and a flag at half staff. In that picture a
drummer boy stands beside the bugler. The grandson of that drummer boy purchased
Berkeley Plantation where Harrisons Landing is located. The site where Taps was born
is also commemorated. In this case, by a monument located on the grounds of Berkeley
Plantation. This monument to Taps was erected by the Virginia American Legion and
dedicated on July 4, 1969. The site is also rich in history, for the Harrisons of Berkeley
Plantation included Benjamin Harrison and William Henry Harrison - both presidents of
the United States and one a signer of the Declaration of Independence.

     It must be pointed out that other stories of the origin of Taps exist. A popular one
is that of a Northern boy who was killed fighting for the south. His father, Robert
Ellison a Captain in the Union Army, came upon his son's body on the battlefield and
found the notes to Taps in a pocket of the dead boy's Confederate uniform. When
Union General Daniel Sickles heard the story, he had the notes sounded at the boy's
funeral. There is no evidence to back up the story or the existence of Captain Ellison.
As with many other customs, this solemn tradition continues today. Although
Butterfield merely revised an earlier bugle call, his role in producing those 24 notes
gives him a place in the history of music as well as the history of war.

As soon as Taps was sounded that night in July 1862, words were put with the music.
The first were, "Go To Sleep, Go to Sleep." As the years went on many more versions
were created. There are no official words to the music but here are some of the more
popular verses:

Day is done, gone the sun,
From the hills, from the lake,
From the skies.
All is well, safely rest,
God is nigh.

Go to sleep, peaceful sleep,
May the soldier or sailor,
God keep.
On the land or the deep,
Safe in sleep.

Love, good night, Must thou go,
When the day, And the night
Need thee so?
All is well. Speedeth all
To their rest.

Fades the light; And afar
Goeth day, And the stars
Shineth bright,
Fare thee well; Day has gone,
Night is on.

Thanks and praise, For our days,
'Neath the sun, Neath the stars,
'Neath the sky,
As we go, This we know,
God is nigh.

Message cf56871eLmM-3804-8+00.htm, number 268, was posted on Wed May 31 at 00:08:02
in reply to cf577ca2CZt-3802-928+00.htm
M/Day poster's Email is a fake, is post too?

webmaster
casketstores@email.com

 ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal
 errors -----
  cdcasket@usa.net

 ----- Transcript of session follows -----
 .... while talking to mxpool01.netaddress.usa.net.:
 >>> RCPT To: cdcasket@usa.net
 <<< 550 cdcasket@usa.net User not known
 550 cdcasket@usa.net User unknown

And, is this for real?
www.summum.org/mummification/arrange/costs.htm




            Summum Mummificationsm
            COSTS as of January 1998


            Memorial Services

                 Memorial/funeral services as detailed in your Last Will and Testament.
                 Contact the funeral home of your choice and develop a list of the services
                 you desire. By law, funeral homes are required to give you current prices
                 over the telephone. These services may take place prior to the
                 Mummification process or upon the return of your Mummy to its final resting
                 place.

                 Cost: $5,000.00 and up

            Transportation

                 Mummification is performed in Salt Lake City, Utah, hence, we must
                 transport your body to and from Salt Lake via air transportation.

                 Cost: $5,000.00 and up

            Mummification

                 Mummification services in Salt Lake City (time and materials).

                 Cost: $12,000.00

            Mummiform

                 Plain Bronze Mummiform, Egyptian motif.

                 Cost: $36,000.00

            Mausoleum

                 Mausoleum space is contracted between you and a cemetery.

                 Cost: $5,000.00 and up

            TOTAL:

                 $63,000.00 +

                 Note: the price of your funeral or memorial service, mausoleum, and
                 transportation can vary considerably.


            « Arrangements
            « Summum Mummification  
Pets start at about $14,000.00

Message d1fd3011PRl-3804-175+00.htm, number 269, was posted on Wed May 31 at 02:55:45
in reply to ce9cf221RN9-3803-1020+00.htm
Re^5: From fancy caskets to cardboard boxes

De'Lores P. Arline
delarl@usa.net

If you would take the time to comprehend my post regarding White Light Caskets you would grasp several things.

1. First and most significant -- I was relaying information from a two way conversation. As previously stated I was called by a REPRESENTATIVE of White Light. De'Lores + REPRESENTATIVE = two people in this exchange and you were not one of them. It is highly unlikely that you can verify what was said during this conversation. I asked why the change in policy and that was his answer. What you choose to believe is your problem.

2. The intent of the post was to inform others of the availability of the product - not to create controversy. I chose to express my personal opinion also, and the last time I checked, this is okay in America. If anyone should know this, it should be you, since you regularly pontificate on this board.

3. Apparently, the CEO doesn't know what his underlings are doing with his product, which I seriously doubt. I am not a FD and I received an UNSOLICITED catalog and request for business. Direct from the company -- no middleman, gray or underground market involvement. Since you are no good at monitoring phone conversations, you might ought to try mail delivery -- then you can let us know who received what.

4. Further, I did not need to contact the CEO to check their policy change, because it did not matter that much to me. I am happy with my suppliers and really have no need for the ArtCaskets.

For you to state "Art Caskets executive would never comment..." appears to be quite an assumption or you must be psychic. Talk about crap.

You really need to keep your two cents worth or at least ask for change.

De'Lores



>(continued re Artcaskets.com)

>>>Broker no longer needed for Art Caskets. Manufacturer, White Lights of Dallas, Texas will sell to casket stores.>>

>The company CEO indicates that the White Light line is sold (1) through distributors to funeral homes, or (2) through the affinity programs noted in the press release.  With the affinity program (most commonly a service organization such as VFW), an individual can actually order the product for delivery to the funeral home.  So..."by the book", Art Caskets do NOT accept orders from retail outlets.  Go to the website to obtain the dsitributor information.

>There are, of course, exceptions to every "rule".  Retail outlets with a licensed funeral director can obtain anything he or she wants:  Batesville, York, Art casket, and so on.  There is also an "after market" for these units from many funeral directors not in the retail business.  (Please note I did not say "gray market" or "underground market".)

>In any case, I speak up when I see B.S. being posted.  Art Caskets executives will never comment that "funeral directors don't get it"; if a salesperson did so, he's not representing his company.  This is a good and up-n-coming company.  If you want their product, call the boss of the company...it's easy, I did...and figure out a way to stock it.  If you're not interested, OK, but don't spread crap.  

>Just my 2centsworth.

>Robin

>  
>

Message d1fd3011PRl-3804-187+00.htm, number 270, was posted on Wed May 31 at 03:07:17
in reply to cdbcc8a41bg-3801-818+00.htm
Re^3: From fancy caskets to cardboard boxes

De'Lores P. Arline
delarl@usa.net

The guy that called me did not express that the company was in trouble or anything dire.

I just happened to inquire about the change of policy and he made the statement.  I felt that they, like any good business, were seeking to increase sales.

Even if sales were rotten, I don't believe they would broadcast it to their customers. Really would not serve as an enticement for others to start or continue doing business.

De'Lores

On Sun May 28, ChuckG wrote
---------------------------
>>>When asked why the change of business policy, he responded that the funeral directors "just didn't get it".

>   I am surprised that White Light is now finding this to be the case.  I spoke with them at some length when they itroduced their new product at the NFDA convention in Boston. They said that their caskets were being extremely well received by the industry, particularly considering that New England is one of the most traditionally oriented parts of the country.   I have heard nothing but positive remarks from my colleagues since that time.  Their coverage in the industry press, as well as the mainstream press has been fantastic too.
>  
>   When I spoke with my Artcasket supplier about two months ago, they said that sales were going reasonably well for a product of this type.  They have even recently expanded their selection to include several more designs, as well as those already offered.
>  
>   I hope that White Light's new attitude isn't a sign that they aren't in it for the long run.  It would make me uncomfortable selling one of these units on a pre-need basis.

>ChuckG

Message cf577c41CZt-3804-589+00.htm, number 271, was posted on Wed May 31 at 09:49:31
in reply to d1fd3011PRl-3804-175+00.htm
Re^6: fancy urns too, these boots...

savcash
a-team@stratos.net

And excuse me, what in the WORLD's difference does it make, if  the
seller is a licensed funeral director, or a casket store, selling
this product over the internet to strangers, for delivery to a funeral home????  Only about $4,000 or better 209.68.195.162/ofsales/product.asp?dept%5Fid=7&sku=C01
so the f.d. doesn't do embalming anymore, or arrangements, (gave it all up maybe)but now just has a casket store....give me a break!
He/she is now a true retailer, just like they were when they had all of the other trappings.......what is all of this excitement about?
So what, I pay $90.00 to a broker and get any product I want, Batesville, etc......they know the writing is on the wall, the broker is just making money while he  can. The future is here and that licensed paperwork means nothing for retailing!!
This retailer's (err, funeral director's) FAQ page
onlinefunerals.com/faq.htm  but they could have gone alittle further - so people wouldn't have to look up (what is the amount of ashes - approx. 12 lbs?) How many measurement units in size c.u. is the average person reduced to?? etc...

Message ce9cf221RN9-3805-503-00.htm, number 272, was posted on Thu Jun 1 at 08:26:39
De'Lores...

robin
jtbod1@netscape.net

If anyone cares, the ups-and-downs of the DCI can make you a lot of money.  I shorted the SRV, STEI public funeral stocks (and won big-time), had investment $ in a funeral home that sold, in the good ol' days, for 8X EBIDTA, and, of course, lost most of my shirt with Loewen a year ago.  But, I'm still way ahead, and see more opportunities.  To wit:  the retail outlets can make money if marketed correctly.  Most are undercapitalized and appear, to many laypeople, that they're about to go out of business "at any time".  I have the $$ to do it right.  Yes, I have a licensed f.d. under the wing of my investment, and I will put BCC in the showroom, among others.  I am most aware of the cremation statistics (I get updates from CANA re the state I will do business in), and will offer some upper-end Wilbert product as well as the usual array of competitive merchandise.  

Thus, I play three dimensionally:  retail, funeral home, and public securities.

It's a game, but I have strong opinions.  Re my comments of the artcasket.com thing, they were not directed at you, and perhaps you interpreted a bit harshly.  In any case, I continue to loathe the frequent b.s. that goes on between the two factions of f.d's and retail operations.  That's all.  I like facts.  I like making a lot of money.

Best of luck to you in your company, and I'll provide a link to my new investment in a few weeks.

Cheers!

Message 404f56e1D26-3805-841-00.htm, number 273, was posted on Thu Jun 1 at 14:01:40
Treasurer's Position Open

laura wend
laurawen@bignet.net

Message 1804fc75QIu-3805-1274-00.htm, number 274, was posted on Thu Jun 1 at 21:15:07
A Note to Robin

Samuel K. Young
gj90@netscape.net

Sam K.  

Message 98a3c94az5a-3806-346-00.htm, number 275, was posted on Fri Jun 2 at 05:46:39
ROBIN

competitive caskets inc.
jjjgjs@aol.com

Message cf5685eeCZt-3806-518+00.htm, number 276, was posted on Fri Jun 2 at 08:39:38
in reply to 98a3c94az5a-3806-346-00.htm
R/or anyone, on steel thickness.....

savcash
a-team@stratos.net

Trying to determine the dif/.in yrs between the 18 gauge steel casket
and the 20 g. steel (time length) for my own personal info.

I know that the measure of the thickness is gauged by:
(to layman terms)however many pcs of that same gauge steel it would take to make an inch. (20g is 20 pc of that same gauge pieces of steel to make up one inch)  But, question number one, do we have anything common (like a license plate say) that we all know and can compare it to- how thick is that stand/USA license plate?


www.virtualfuneral.com/sfhfaq.htm#What is a 18 Gauge Steel Casket
www.kfhinc.com/metal.htm
--example of measurements put another way -...."
are all .050" aluminum and one .100" bronze
    Chris - Can you translate that .050" into a guage for steel?
    Wray - .050 is almost 16 GA steel thickness(.054")
    Chris - Okay and the bronze is almost 12 ga. but not quite.

                        0.0625-inch (16-guage) wall thickness for mild-steel
---
The only other thing I could find that everyone might be familiar
with (and had information on the thickness of the steel, lasting underground)

Underground steel fuel oil tanks
                  Standard oval 275 and 330 gallon 12-gauge single-wall steel tanks. These
                  tanks have a one year replacement guarantee. In addition, we have a new
                  Roth double-wall rectangular tank. There are over 30 million of these tanks
                  in use in Europe. They have a full 10-year warranty, including $1 million of
                  environmental clean up coverage.

                  The life expectancy of underground oil tanks depends upon many factors,
                  including the thickness of the steel, the type of fill material, the presence of
                  ground water and the level of electrical activity in the ground. We have
                  seen 10-year-old tanks which are in very bad condition. On the other
                  hand, we have seen 50-year-old tanks which are as good as the day they
                  were installed.

                  What are the chances that my tank is leaking?

                  A recent independent study of buried tanks in the Northeast found that less
                  than 2/10 of 1% of the tanks are leaking. However, because of high water
                  tables, the percentage of leaking tanks in Sussex County seems to be
                  somewhat higher.
----Question number two....
Does anyone have any idea of the length of time - given the same ground conditions, that the extra gauge steel unit would last in the ground over the thinner one? Or rather, the 18 gauge steel casket over the 20 gauge casket?

For my part of infor contributition....my husband has had in his backgound, many (over 20) years worked with steel, as a fabricator, welder and was certified both horizontal and vertical fabricator / welder (when he used to work with a firm that did highway bridges)so he knows steel. But all he could offer me, "The difference in the gauge of steel, no matter if it is 16 gauge, or 18, or 20 gauge, is so slight,  the eye cannot tell the difference by just looking at it, to guess which one is thicker."  And in response to my question, how much longer would the thicker (since it is so little thicker really) would last underground?? "Not really sure, maybe 5 years?"
Anyone correct or add to this, these thoughts???

Message cf5687c7LmM-3807-1269-00.htm, number 277, was posted on Sat Jun 3 at 21:09:41
Refunds from cemetery for plastic caskets

webmaster
casketstores@email.com

detnews.com:80/2000/oakland/0006/01/c04-65704.htm

and
Spokane.net - Abe Lincoln casket replica knocks 'em dead
www.spokane.net
also
Different field, same idea - same threats, same results (buyers have supply and save thousands)

                    DaimlerChrysler joins GM, Ford in
                    warning dealers away from Internet
                    brokers
detnews.com:80/2000/autos/0005/30/autos-64194.htm
......   Penske controls 117 dealerships in 17 states, and those
                    dealerships will become the preferred provider of vehicles to
                    CarsDirect. Penske, well known in the auto industry, says he's
                    spoken with Ford about their warning, and that CarsDirect will
                    pass muster.
(end copy)
If I am not mistaken, Penske also dabbles in the death care industry....

Message cf5687c7CZt-3807-1279+00.htm, number 278, was posted on Sat Jun 3 at 21:19:11
in reply to cf2489c9ImK-3795-610+00.htm
Re: FTC Funeral Rule Violators

savcash
a-team@stratos.net

Our news release of the same frop page we just put up - from post back on May 1st, and photo of one
of the stock cars we sponser near bottom of page, center
search.news.yahoo.com/search/news?p=frop&hc=0&hs=1

ps. Because we do car shows and such, word must be getting around-
someone called from Ca. today, wants to buy a fiberglass casket to
make the "Munster's Drag-u-la Hot Rod casket" take off from the t.v.
show to enter all over in car shows, hot rod exhibts, parades, etc. Seems he tried two funeral homes to
buy the casket, and they told him they couldn't sell him a casket unless someone died......(I've seen
them used in car show entries before-
tastefully done, so you might see A Team Master's name on this unit
as partly a sponsor too, great advertisement!)I'll put up a photo if it turns out that way.
Thanks for news on White Light De'Lores, perhaps going to get the
Last Ride casket that has the winning flags on it....

(copied also)

And, is this for real?
www.summum.org/mummification/arrange/costs.htm


           Summum Mummificationsm
           COSTS as of January 1998


           Memorial Services

                Memorial/funeral services as detailed in your Last Will and Testament.
                Contact the funeral home of your choice and develop a list of the services
                you desire. By law, funeral homes are required to give you current prices
                over the telephone. These services may take place prior to the
                Mummification process or upon the return of your Mummy to its final resting
                place.

                Cost: $5,000.00 and up

           Transportation

                Mummification is performed in Salt Lake City, Utah, hence, we must
                transport your body to and from Salt Lake via air transportation.

                Cost: $5,000.00 and up

           Mummification

                Mummification services in Salt Lake City (time and materials).

                Cost: $12,000.00

           Mummiform

                Plain Bronze Mummiform, Egyptian motif.

                Cost: $36,000.00

           Mausoleum

                Mausoleum space is contracted between you and a cemetery.

                Cost: $5,000.00 and up

           TOTAL:

                $63,000.00 +

                Note: the price of your funeral or memorial service, mausoleum, and
                transportation can vary considerably.


           « Arrangements
           « Summum Mummification  
Pets start at about $14,000.00

Message cf568422CZt-3812-994-00.htm, number 279, was posted on Thu Jun 8 at 16:34:27
...time to pass along a little seriousness and a lot of levity.

savcash
a-team@stratos.net

                           I love this letter from Shannon in Kentucky. It illustrates what
                           happens to the bereaved at the hands of 'death dealers.'

                           . . . And Does It Come In Designer Colors?

                           Upon reading "Today's Flight Plan", I came across another
                           thought that stupefies me. Over the past few years, I have had the
                           unpleasant task of making funeral arrangements for my family
                           members; my father, sister, grandfather and grandmother. As I
                           browsed through the casket room of our local mortuary I couldn't
                           help but notice the marketing techniques. The first caskets are of
                           heavy metal, usually bronze and carry hefty price tags. The prices
                           of caskets get lower or cheaper (if one can call them cheap) as
                           one walks toward the back of the display room. Those in the back
                           are modest, fiber board covered with some flocked velvet pattern
                           in a fuchsia color and a flat top ...like you see in the movies for a
                           pauper's funeral. (Yuck, very depressing) Who would ever select
                           that kind of a container for a loved one? In a small town, the type
                           of casket your family picks is a status symbol. However, I
                           couldn't help paying attention to one of the selling points of some
                           Batesville caskets. They are very good,.....they have a box
                           springs and mattress, not to mention a LIFETIME GUARANTEE.

                           During my times of grief, I never asked what the Hell that was
                           supposed to mean. On looking back, it's certainly something to
                           ponder. I thought you might add that to your list of ridiculous
                           warnings and comments that are posted on many products. What
                           is a LIFETIME GUARANTEE ON A CASKET? I'm very
                           serious.....check it out. Just for your info.... a note from
                           Kentucky.....your loyal fan, Shannon

                           Dear Shannon, Anyone who'd been......

www.mckuen.com/flights/270899.htm

----Big guys eat the little guys ----
www.slugwire.org/weekly/archives/98April30/death.html
---- They need to please their bosses...(and learn sales techniques
"A Quiet walk, Trust the funeral director?"
members.tripod.co.uk/funeral/page6.html

Message cf5687e9CZt-3814-1386+00.htm, number 280, was posted on Sat Jun 10 at 23:06:28
in reply to cf568422CZt-3812-994-00.htm
they thought it serious....

savcash
a-team@stratos.net

www.salon.com/business/feature/2000/05/31/deathhoax/index.html

And they fell for it, hook - line and sinker

www.joeyskaggs.com/html/final.html

Message 98a3cf4fz5a-3817-378-00.htm, number 281, was posted on Tue Jun 13 at 06:18:29
ROBIN

competitive caskets inc.
jjjgjs@aol.com

Message cf5686dbCZt-3818-644+00.htm, number 282, was posted on Wed Jun 14 at 10:44:49
in reply to 98a3cf4fz5a-3817-378-00.htm
Request for prayers.....

savcash
a-team@stratos.net

Message 9efc41adYfJ-3818-911-00.htm, number 283, was posted on Wed Jun 14 at 15:11:25
Franchise vs independent

Omie Crockett
xpressrefund@earthlink.net

Message cf6614a2DFT-3818-1013+00.htm, number 284, was posted on Wed Jun 14 at 16:53:32
in reply to cf5686dbCZt-3818-644+00.htm
Re: Request for prayers.....

Ender
ender4283@hotmail.com

Robin I wish you a full and speedy recovery.

Ender

Message cdbcc524z5a-3819-341-00.htm, number 285, was posted on Thu Jun 15 at 05:41:08
ROBIN-

competitive caskets inc.
jjjgjs@aol.com

Message cf56865dLmM-3819-743-00.htm, number 286, was posted on Thu Jun 15 at 12:23:20
Credit union, meeting pl. & Election Judge

webmaster
casketstores@email.com

Laura Wend (our Tres. for many years) has many things going on, and has received offers from other long standing store members to accecpt the Tres. position (until our vote from our Sept. metting)and is compling a report to show the balances & expenses of the membership funds.

After vacations and other areas that needed attention, Thelma  of PeachTree casket is getting the draft together by the end of this month for the newsletter (mailed to our members)if you have any news or ideas to be included, please let her know at Secretary
                                Thelma Jaco TMOflash@aol.com
                             Peachtree Caskets
                         3514 Chamblee Tucker Rd,
                             Atlanta, Ga 30341
                    Phone: 770-952-2753 Fax: 770-457-5597

Neded - Important position filled by member who will step up to be our Elections Judge.  As our by laws state, at least 45 days prior to our annual meeting that will take place the third week end in September (between 9/15 & 9/17/2000) (location needs to be choosen also, by vote as will be detailed in our newsletter)any member that desires to fill any elected position will submit their name to the Elections Judge. At least 30 days prior to the meeting the Elections Judge shall prepare a ballot listing the canidates in alphabectical order and shall mail this ballot to all active members via US mail. Any member not attending the meeting may vote (see by laws for the rest of this news.)
Please email me here at casketstores@email.com to fill the Elections Judge position.

Working on added benefits for our members, the NARDA Credit Union has forwarded information for our membership to join. Many benefits (no matter what state you are in) for owners and their employees. This will be forwarded also - please email for this package. Contact person, Bryan, called to say they will travel to our meeting to go over all of the credit union news . They are a member of The NARDA (North American Retailer Dealer's Association)www.narda.com/ who we have also been speaking with.
Another assoc. The NRF for National, also has a list of each  state  has a retailer's association that each member might want to check into. They help retailers, and spread the news about your store.  www.nrf.com/dir/list.htm

A note to Robin: Nice pic, nice all round person and sure do wish you full recovery.
A note about the fran. vs. not - this is something you would need to speak with them about, then do your homework, as it doesn't work out the same for everyone.

Message d8118622RQN-3821-521-00.htm, number 287, was posted on Sat Jun 17 at 08:41:26
legalities in colorado

Ron Stern
immunezone@juno.com

Message cf5687e5CZt-3821-660+00.htm, number 288, was posted on Sat Jun 17 at 11:00:26
in reply to d8118622RQN-3821-521-00.htm
Re: legalities in colorado

savcash
a-team@stratos.net

On Sat Jun 17, Ron Stern wrote
------------------------------
>Does anyone know if it is legal to open a discount business in Colorado?  Also, are there any existing businesses that offer help or assistance with opening such an enterprize?  (franchise or biz op).

Message cf2488b0ImK-3823-719+00.htm, number 289, was posted on Mon Jun 19 at 11:59:07
in reply to d8118622RQN-3821-521-00.htm
Re: legalities in colorado

ValDan
oldeworldcasket@aol.com

Message cf5686e4LmM-3823-1042+00.htm, number 290, was posted on Mon Jun 19 at 17:22:00
in reply to cf2488b0ImK-3823-719+00.htm
Re^2: legalities in colorado

webmaster
casketstores@email.com

Message cf577c52LmM-3824-631+00.htm, number 291, was posted on Tue Jun 20 at 10:32:41
in reply to d8118622RQN-3821-521-00.htm
Not tooting his own horn

webmaster
casketstores@email.com

Greenwood Casket Co
greenwood@writeme.com

We know in this industry, that one should purchase a casket according to it's visual aesthetics, matching these to the personality of the deceased. After all, this product is used for less than 6 hours on average, and then it goes in the ground. Spending ridiculous amounts on supposed "high quality" caskets goes counter to the message we are trying to convey to our consumers. We want to offer a beautiful product at an exceptional price. We believe we have the product line that fits this description.

*www.cableregina.com/business/jbyggdin/order.htm Retail prices
Please check out our dealer prices (*email for the url)

We believe you will be most satisfied with the quality and prices we are offering.

Thank you,

John Byggdin

President
Greenwood Casket Co.
16 Porter Bay
Emerald Park, SK, Canada
S4L 1B9
Ph:  306 522 9966
Fax: 306 522 9964
email: greenwood@writeme.com

web site: www.freefuneralhelp.com

(*edited by webmaster - as this is a non member, wholesale url advertised only to Dealers by email request)

[ This message was edited on Tue Jun 20 by webmaster ]

Message cf56870cCZt-3824-1084-00.htm, number 293, was posted on Tue Jun 20 at 18:03:46
group helping cover burial costs for victims

savcash
a-team@stratos.net

dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ao/20000614/cr/victims_group_helps_cover_funeral_costs_1.html

And seeing casketstores ranked on this site, means there are 541,054
beneath us as webs most linked site ;-) -----The domain: casketstores.com, is ranked #87717 out of 628771 domains in the
     WebsMostLinked.com database interesting site, showing the highest ranked websmostlinked.com/display.cgi?101

And a very worthwhile site
www.savinggraves.com/

Message 3f0fec95VE6-3827-799-00.htm, number 294, was posted on Fri Jun 23 at 13:19:19
Research for The Learning Channel

Shana Vickers
shanavickers@hotmail.com

Message cf568626CZt-3828-697+00.htm, number 295, was posted on Sat Jun 24 at 11:39:51
in reply to 3f0fec95VE6-3827-799-00.htm
"any day above ground..."

savcash
a-team@stratos.net

You didn't say what state you are in, but here are a few links to check out. Let us know when you are going to do this pc, and even-
if you are going to do an up to date "Where to go in today's market place for all the newest kinds of caskets available, the NCRA has a store directory for each state, and many page of information at www.casketstores.com"
links to see, archive.dallasnews.com/cgi-bin/display.cgi?id=3954def1322e4Mpqaweb1P11015&doc=results.html
www.crai-ky.com/reports/
www.houstonpress.com/extra/urbanadventures/stories/ua_070998.html (copied below)






                                                 
 The Rite Stuff
 As they say at the National Museum of Funeral History,
 "any day above ground is a good one."
 By Bob Ruggiero

          A video at the beginning of the tour says,
          "We're all beings that will someday expire."
          Thus placed in the proper frame of mind, you're
          ready to explore the National Museum of
          Funeral History, a bizarre but compelling
 collection of artifacts about shuffling off this mortal coil.

 "A lot of people don't know what to expect; they either
 make a big joke of it or are scared. But once they're
 inside, they see how cool it is. They know [death's] part
 of our culture," says Keven Boetticher, the museum's Gen
 X manager. "Some people expect to see dead bodies all
 over the place. But it's not that [somber]. We have two
 or three senior-citizen groups a week that come out, and
 they joke about it with each other." The black comedy
 spills over into the gift shop, which sells golf balls
 emblazoned with the image of an old-time hearse and beer
 coozies bearing the inscription "Every day above ground is
 a good one." Boetticher says he's fresh out of the golf
 clubs with the coffins on the putting ends, but more are
 expected soon.

 Once you get past the initial creepiness of sharing space
 with all those hearses and coffins -- including children's
 caskets with see-through windows, often built by fathers
 as a form of grief therapy -- you'll find a fascinating
 history about how we Americans have confronted death.
 Some funereal facts: Services were held in the family
 home until the advent of the modern mortuary in the
 1920s; a 19th-century widow was expected to wear black
 for two years after her husband's death; a girl who'd lost
 a parent could expect to have all of her regular toys
 exchanged for a contemplative-looking "mourning doll"; it
 was perfectly acceptable to hang a photo of your
 deceased Uncle Zed in the living room, but this snapshot
 would be taken after Zed was dead, baby.

 The 20,000-square-foot memorabilia mausoleum even
 owns a triple casket custom-made for a distraught
 Midwestern couple who planned a murder/suicide following
 the death of their child. They eventually overcame their
 grief, and the wife even asked for a refund 20 years later;
 presumably, that check's still in the mail. Speaking of
 unusual coffins, the museum has the most complete
 collection of Ghanaian "fantasy designer" coffins in the
 U.S. These colorful folk-art boxes are designed to reflect
 the status of the deceased. A Ghanaian cattleman might
 be laid to rest in a coffin shaped like a black-and-white
 bull; a fisherman might spend eternity inside a large purple
 lobster complete with whiskers and claws.

 Car buffs will gape at the museum's collection of
 immaculate hearses, including a 1924 Model TT Hoover
 and a 1929 Studebaker Superior, and the only remaining
 1916 Packard funeral bus. This black-curtained vehicle
 had room for 20 mourners, pallbearers and the deceased,
 but it was quickly taken out of circulation following a
 disaster at a San Francisco service; scaling a tough hill,
 the bus sent mourners tumbling over pallbearers and spat
 out the casket, which did the same with its body.

 There are special exhibits -- Abraham Lincoln's
 cross-country funeral trek; "Funerals of the Famous" (JFK,
 Nixon, Eva Gabor) -- and a short history of embalming,
 which includes a body table and fluid containers (they
 bear an unsettling resemblance to that stainless-steel
 coffee pot in your office). "This is a very nice display,"
 says Brock Baker, an ebony-suited embalmer from Kansas
 and a dead ringer for actor Martin Landau. "This is like
 coming home for me. I used to watch my dad embalm
 bodies when I was little."

 Frank Sinatra -- now a candidate for an NMFH exhibit of
 his own -- once opined, "You gotta love livin', because
 dyin's a pain in the ass." True, but at least this brush with
 the inevitable doesn't require a handkerchief or a barf bag.

 First appeared in the July 9, 1998 issue

                                                                         
                                                                         
                                                   Illustration by Robert Kopecky


                                                                         
                                                     This adventure has been
                                                            rated
                                                             

                                                   Do the rite thing
                                                   quicktime movie -- requires QT
                                                   3.0 or higher

                                                   Tales from the crypt
                                                   quicktime movie -- requires QT 3.0
                                                   or higher

                                                                         
                                                   The National Museum of Funeral
                                                   History

                                                   Open 10 a.m. to 4 p.m.
                                                   weekdays;
                                                   noon to 4 p.m. weekends.

                                                   415 Barren Springs, (281)
                                                   876-3063

                                                   $5; $3 for kids under 12 and
                                                   seniors.

                                                                           
                          « return to Urban Adventures »
                                                                   
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                          © NewTimes, Inc. All Rights Reserved



On Fri Jun 23, Shana Vickers wrote
----------------------------------
>I am doing some research on a documentary about death for The Learning Channel.  We have historical drawings and artifacts which show that, in the past, coffins were constructed to prevent someone from being mistakenly buried alive (i.e. with some sort of device that would enable the victim to notify those above ground).  We are searching for an actual replica of one of these coffins to include in the film.  Does anyone know of a source where we can find such historical coffins still preserved, or anyone who might still construct them?

Message cf577ca5LmM-3830-1241-00.htm, number 296, was posted on Mon Jun 26 at 20:42:41
Site for celebrating life, not fearing death.

webmaster
casketstores@email.com

In the mailbag (if interested, reply direct)


------Original Message------
From: "Ricky Koon" rkoon@netvigator.com To: casketstores@email.com
Sent: June 26, 2000 8:33:58 AM GMT
Subject: Funeral Accessary Offer


Dear Sir
We are manufactory of Funeral Accessaries in China, We produce Funeral Sheet, Burial Garment, Wooden Ashes Casket & Artificial Flower.
We looking for business partner, in case you have any friend interested
to import above items from China, Please introduce us and contact us by return e-mail.
Regards Ricky Koon

And also BIG congrads are in order ,going out to: Pat Pierce ( of the Casket Store, Ga, our Membership Associate,) and Bob White were married  June 23, 2000 in a private ceremony at Ebenezer United Methodist Church

And a copy of an interview with a retailer:
 


 CASKET DISCOUNTER FINDING A NICHE
 (The Record (Bergen County, NJ))



 CASKET DISCOUNTER FINDING A NICHE -- PARAMUS SHOP   SELLS DIRECTLY TO FAMILIES

 By DAVID GOWRIE, Staff Writer
 Date: 03-15-2000, Wednesday
 Section: BUSINESS
 Edition: All Editions -- Four Star B, Three Star B,
 Two Star P, One Star B
 Column: BUSINESS Q&A

 Andrew Paer believes the cost of a final resting place   should not be   exorbitant, nd, it seems, legislators agree.

 After decades, funeral homes' stranglehold on casket  sales was   loosened when the  Federal Trade Commission ushered in  new legislation in  1994.

 The Funeral Rule, as it is known, prohibits mortuary  directors from  refusing or  charging a fee to handle a casket bought outside the funeral home.

 The promise of capitalizing on a new era of  competition prompted  Paer to open Casket  Discounters in Paramus last month.


 Selling directly to the public from his showroom on  Route 17, Paer  offers caskets and  other funeral-related products at  prices he says  undercut mortuary offerings by 50 percent to 80  percent.

 Paer delivers, free of charge, directly to the customer's designated funeral home.

 The nation's 22,000 mortuaries are not concerned by  the relatively  new phenomenon of  retail casket stores, says Kelly  Smith, spokeswoman  for the National Funeral Directors Association.

 "Consumers have become more interested in the  personalized services  that only a  funeral director can offer," Smith says.
 "They're less   interested in whether they have a beautiful casket."  Smith says the average funeral home price for a metal  casket is $2,100, whereas his average price for a similar casket is $1,500.

 Q. What merchandise do you offer?
 A. All different varieties of caskets, including metal, wood, bronze, semiprecious, religious, and personalized caskets, as  well as children's caskets. I am also involved with urns for cremation.

 Q. Who are your suppliers?
 A. All my suppliers are American-based. I have  exclusive, private-label   arrangements with them.

 Q. Do you provide delivery services to funeral homes?
 A. Yes. I use common carrier systems, including major  trucking  companies. In New Jersey, I own my own trucking  company. Depending on    the urgency and logistics, we can deliver within 24  hours by ground or  air.

 Q. Where are your customers located, and where are the   majority of   caskets being  shipped?
 A. Most of my clientele has been in New Jersey up to  this point. But I  expect to expand into other geographic markets. I do  have a Web site,  and I advertise in newspapers.

 Q. Are you competing with funeral homes?
 A. Yes. I'm competing with literally everybody in the  funeral industry.

 Q. What makes your business unique?
 A. My business is unique because of the recent  opportunities that have  been afforded by the changes in the law. A lot of  people haven't   ventured into this.

 I'm set up as a retailer of funeral-related  merchandise. But  indirectly, I am  consulting people. When they come to  me, the first    thing we do is literally discuss the laws. After that,  we discuss what  their requirements are and how I could possibly help  them.

 Q. What is the price range for your merchandise?
 A. I give people a discount anywhere from 50 percent  to 80 percent of   what a funeral home charges. Depending on the quality  of the component,  caskets range from $399 to about $14,000.

 Q. How are you able to offer those discounts?
 A. I have lower overhead. It's my own business; I'm  not owned by a   public company, which a lot of funeral homes are now.  So I don't have  the cost structure of a major public conglomerate. I  can pass those   savings directly on to the consumer.

 Q. Are there other costs, such as delivery charges or  sales tax?
 A. I don't charge for delivery, but there is sales  tax, which is 6   percent of the purchase price of the casket. In  respect to the consumer,  I may absorb that cost, depending on the individual's  situation and   budget.

 Q. Do you provide other services offered by funeral  homes?
 A. Certain services that they provide only they can do in their particular environment, such as embalming. There are  regulations  applicable to those services. I don't offer any of those [services] because that's not my focus.

 Q. What investment did it take to start your business?

 A. I'd rather not disclose the exact amount. But I did it all myself. I  self-funded this.

 Q. Will this be a profitable business?
 A. I think it could be a profitable business, but it's  going to take   time.

 Illustrations/Photos: PHOTO - THOMAS E. FRANKLIN /
 STAFF PHOTOGRAPHER - Andrew
 Paer, president of Casket Discounters in Paramus, says
 his low overhead allows
 him to charge less for caskets.

 Keywords: DEATH. EQUIPMENT. STORE. PARAMUS
(end copy) hmmmm, NFDA isn't "worried?" Not factual or else there would not be all the
low blows. WV is submitting paperwork on the casket store issues now also. More later.

Message cdbcc59dz5a-3831-1063-00.htm, number 297, was posted on Tue Jun 27 at 17:43:10
FUNERAL RULE

competitive caskets inc.
jjjgjs@aol.com

Message cf5684cdCZt-3832-594-00.htm, number 300, was posted on Wed Jun 28 at 09:54:43
keepin 'em honest..

savcash
a-team@stratos.net

Let's keep them all honest - if the competition isn't there - and they aren't afraid of the exposure - public opinion and the FTC funeral rule, I really think that the industry would've headed to far worse than what it is now. I checked the funeral rule news just a few days ago, no new news yet. No however, I feel that the others that bid for any type of work or customer that us "retailers" can do, will be on their toes more, (prices are already being cut back thanks to "us")


Of course, part of getting the right answers is knowing the right questions to ask.......so everyone is/can be a winner.......//copy

TERRIBLE ACCIDENT

In a terrible accident at a railroad crossing, a train smashed into a car
and pushed it nearly four hundred yards down the track. Though no
one was killed, the driver took the train company to court.

At the trial, the engineer insisted that he had given the driver ample
warning by waving his lantern back and forth for nearly a minute.  
He even stood and convincingly demonstrated how he'd done it.  
The court believed his story, and the suit was dismissed.

"Congratulations," the lawyer said to the engineer when it was over.
"You did superbly under cross-examination."

"Thanks," he said, "but he sure had me worried."

"How's that?" the lawyer asked.

"I was afraid he was going to ask if the lantern was lit!"

Submitted by Big5

Send your favorite jokes to mailto:jokes@inc.HumorShack.com
________________________________________________________

Message cf5684d2LmM-3833-743-00.htm, number 301, was posted on Thu Jun 29 at 12:24:51
One in four!

webmaster
casketstores@email.com

But, then the funeral industry has seen the writing on the wall, and are they thrying to confuse the public into thinking they are us now? The public has heard  (and "seen" even on reruns ;-)abcnews.go.com/onair/2020/2020_000616_gmab_caskets_feature.html
about the savings, and try to "shop"  but getting this kind of news, it WILL be very limited and NOT to any casket stores that are not part of a high overhead = large price tag at  a licensed funeral home.
site www.zdnet.com/computershopper/stories/reviews/0,7171,2582261,00.html


Least 10 wired industries
www.zdnet.com/pccomp/stories/all/0,6605,2453048,00.html

Message cdbcc12az5a-3834-942-00.htm, number 302, was posted on Fri Jun 30 at 15:41:56
T.V STATION--IMPORTANT

competitive caskets inc.
jjjgjs@aol.com

Message 98a3cf3dyqP-3834-1252+00.htm, number 303, was posted on Fri Jun 30 at 20:52:08
in reply to cdbcc12az5a-3834-942-00.htm
Re: T.V STATION--IMPORTANT

MIKE FORTUNE
fortune652@aol.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Mike Fortune - Precious Memories Casket Company 1-888-291-5862
Located 10 miles outside of Washington D.C was able to save a family $600.00 over the Funeral Home Price on a wood Casket. The Funeral Home was going to give the wife a $200.00 Senior Citizen discount if they brought the casket from them. I saved them $400.00 dollars over the Funeral Home's alleged discount. She went with me and I provide her a Black Cherry Wood casket versus a Poplar they would give her for $600.00 above my price. What would you take a Black Cherry and save $600.00 or a poplar for more.  The funeral personnel were not very happy when I made the delivery. The worker who directed be to the back entrance where deliveries are accepted was very rude and unprofessional. Made because they lost that deal.

Message cf56858cCZt-3834-1260+00.htm, number 304, was posted on Fri Jun 30 at 21:00:00
in reply to 98a3cf3dyqP-3834-1252+00.htm
Re^2: T.V STATION--IMPORTANT

savcash
a-team@stratos.net

Good of you to let us all know. I would sure like to add my 2 cents worth - about how I am restricted from wholesale purchases for some
product, (ie: concrete boxes, vaults & caskets)  A 16 yr old firm
that is used to the ability to purchase whatever, whenever for my
( constructon) firm, that is what burns me the most- that this casket retailing division is not treated fairly and open, above board with wholesale purchase from some!!

savcash
a-team@stratos.net

No matter which side of the fence you are on in this death care
industry - funeral director to retailers - this is a site that
all should view and act upon. From just over 150 on June 30th, to over 700 on today, Sat. a day later - it is taking off. Can you send it to a friend or post it somewhere also? I know you feel strongly about the ruin that is going on too. What a shame this wasn't done before.

www.PetitionOnline.com/sg0001/petition.html

 
                                     
             National Cemetery Protection Act


                                       

                       View Current Signatures - Sign the Petition

    To:  United States Congress

    To: The Congress of the United States of America

    We the undersigned citizens, call upon the Congress of the United States of
    America to introduce and pass a National Cemetery Protection Act that would
    ensure the protection and preservation of our nations historic cemeteries by
    defining specific rules and regulations pertaining to

    A) Cemetery Use, Care, Control and Protection, including but not limited to:

    - A mandatory Dusk curfew.
    - The mandatory recording of surveys and plats
    - Record Keeping
    - General cemetery care guidelines (including fences and upkeep)
    - Regulations concerning the use of cemeteries on private land
    - Regulations concerning the access of cemeteries on private land

    B) Restricting, Limiting and Regulating the use of a cemetery, including but
    not limited to:

    - Road/Railroad/Utility construction
    - Establish conditions applying to the sale or transfer of cemetery property
    - Regulations concerning Disinterment, Disentombment and other such removals.
    - Regulations concerning Abandonment and Reburial
    - Transfer of cemetery property from private to public status
    - Restriction on alienation or condemnation

    Such legislation would call for enforceable penalties including but not
    limited to monetary fines and/or jail time.

    Sincerely,

    The Undersigned

                            View Current Signatures
                                     


                                     

    The National Cemetery Protection Act Petition to United States Congress was created by Saving
    Graves - supports and encourages the protection, restoration, and preservation of endangered
    cemeteries and written by William Spurlock.  This petition is hosted here at
    www.PetitionOnline.com as a public service. There is no express or implied endorsement of this
    petition by Artifice, Inc. or our sponsors. The petition scripts are created by Mike Wheeler at
    Artifice, Inc.  For Technical Support please use our simple Petition Help form.

                              Send this to a friend

PetitionOnline - DesignCommunity - 3D Designers - Gallery - Architecture - Scrapbook - 3D Developers
                              - Games - Search
www.PetitionOnline.com/sg0001/petition.html
                                          © 1999-2000 Artifice, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.

-------(your email is required, however not shown if you prefer)----
Also related, in the news and ONE of the reasons why the above is needed!
dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000630/re/crime_skynyrd_dc_2.html

Message d01af1256iQ-3836-668-00.htm, number 307, was posted on Sun Jul 2 at 11:08:35
Casket distribution

Mike
mike73coug@yahoo.com

If you decided you wanted to sell new automobiles, you can't just call up one of the "Big Three" and have them ship you 20 new cars for your showroom.  In my state of Washington, you even have to be liscensed to buy used autos for resale.  I use to work in food animal production and many non-prescription pharmaceuticals were non-the-less available only from liscensed Veterinarians.  Many hair care products are available only from liscensed cosmotoligists.  Irrigation products: many of the big manufacturers distribute different lines and qualities to consumer outlets and building supply stores than they do to liscensed contractors and irrigation dealers.  One of the loudest critics about this here is a contrator as well as a casket retailer.  I don't know about Ohio, but here in Washington she as a liscensed contractor would have access to all kinds of products and wholesale outlets that I as a home fixer upper or even as a small hardware store wouldn't have access to.  Ultimately, the consumer will decide the value of the retailers in the DCI marketplace, and the casket manufacturers shouldn't have to be under any more restrictions than other manufacturers.

And, ultimately, what the consumer really needs isn't cheap caskets, it's more affordable funerals.  It seems to me that the desireable wave of the future will be a liscensed professional funeral service that offers merchandise selection in a "store front" more familiar and comfortable retail like environment that one can drop in at and gain product familiarity, rather than an interior selection room.  They will offer competitive and fair prices on funeral merchandise, including a broader product line, and more units priced under $1,0000, than are typically found in a selection room or from a retailer, and they will offer the full range of death care professional services, from one convenient source.  If the retailers are really interested in helping the consumer, they would either become liscensed professionals, or contract for such services, and offer affordable compleate funeral packages.  That's my "2 cents worth".

Message cf5687ebCZt-3837-35+00.htm, number 308, was posted on Mon Jul 3 at 00:36:00
in reply to d01af1256iQ-3836-668-00.htm
Re: Casket distribution

savcash
a-team@stratos.net

----
 This is legal, and ought to remain so as long as it doesn't violate anti-trust statutes, I would think.

>If you decided you wanted to sell new automobiles, you can't just call up one of the "Big Three" and have them ship you 20 new cars for your showroom.  In my state of Washington, you even have to be liscensed to buy used autos for resale.  I use to work in food animal production and many non-prescription pharmaceuticals were non-the-less available only from liscensed Veterinarians.  Many hair care products are available only from liscensed cosmotoligists.  Irrigation products: many of the big manufacturers distribute different lines and qualities to consumer outlets and building supply stores than they do to liscensed contractors and irrigation dealers.
---Money talks, that's all - >>> they <<<> One of the loudest critics about this here is a contrator as well as a casket retailer.  I don't know about Ohio, but here in Washington she as a liscensed contractor would have access to all kinds of products and wholesale outlets that I as a home fixer upper or even as a small hardware store wouldn't have access to.
----Sounds very unfair too, and if so, burns you doesn't it?

>and they will offer the full range of death care professional services, from one convenient source.
----Kind of like a Consultant huh? Seems there are many now, going into it this way too. People like to know that they are not being told
everything from one side. And are willing to get (pay for) a second opinion, from those OUTSIDE the field. This shouldn't upset those INSIDE -even for the honorable and upstanding ones.
After all, they are being asked to shell out over $6,000-
$10,000.00 for the whole "arrangements." The bad write ups, past disclosers, unfair treatment of retailers & others, give good reason.

> If the retailers are really interested in helping the consumer, they would either become liscensed professionals, or contract for such services, and offer affordable compleate funeral packages.  That's my "2 cents worth".
---Let me mention, there would have been no need for any "others" in the field, it things hadn't gotten out of hand in the first place.
I'm not interested in "becoming" but I have branched out to offer many more services and point people to those more "helping". Things will work out. But until then, (and this may take better than just a generation)there is room for more than just the licensed funeral director in this field - to offer the public "goods".
And we aren't alone---Killing
     Competition
     In The
     Funeral
     Industry
www.ncpa.org/pd/regulat/pd100899c.html
www.gocarolinas.com/news/carolinas/1999/07/27/sc_casketsales.html

ValDan
oldeworldcasket@aol.com

[ This message was edited on Wed Jul 5 by the author ]

Message cf6614a2DFT-3841-633-00.htm, number 310, was posted on Fri Jul 7 at 10:32:50
Robin has left us

Ender
ender4283@hotmail.com

Please keep her in your prayers.

I am sorry to report that Jennifer
> passed on peacefully in her sleep
> last night in Minnesota at 9:24 pm.
> She was with her mother and many
> family and friends. She was 30, and died
> of from complications of ovarian cancer.
>
> She has left several letters on her
> computer that we at Coran have been
> asked to print. I will do so in the
> next several days. Services are pri-
> vate and will take place on Wednesday
> evening and Thursday morning. Jennifer
> will be interred at her family cemetary.
> She left me a web
> site that I am to provid information
> on later this week for any messages
> if you would like to do so.
>
> Jennifer was very sick. I know many
> of you wrote nice things and she was
> very awaare of that. From all of us
> who knew her and and cared for her
> and to all you I am sure, she will
> be missed.
>
> She told me to print this below and I
> will copy more in the next days.
>
> I am sorry to tell you this.
>
> A/G
>
> ...............
> To the STEI'ers:
>
> You are precious in my eyes, and honored, and I love you.
>
> Isaiah 43:4
>
> JTB

Message cf568687CZt-3842-690+00.htm, number 311, was posted on Sat Jul 8 at 11:30:32
in reply to c7e3bd19ImK-3839-953+00.htm
Re: Prices To Die For!

savcash
a-team@stratos.net

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paying to go out, forever, in style
By Mary Foster, Associated Press, 7/7/2000


NEW ORLEANS - With its black columns and stained-glass windows, Ruth
Fertel's ultimate retirement spot is stylish for its size.


The granite mausoleum sits on a 27-foot-square plot under moss-draped trees
on the edge of a bayou in Metairie Cemetery. Its ambiance, Fertel says,
will
encourage visitors to linger.


''It's such a beautiful and peaceful spot,'' said Fertel, who is 73. ''I
just know my family is going to love visiting me there.''


The founder of the Ruth's Chris Steakhouse chain built the tomb with her
longtime friend and business partner, Lana Duke, then invited 150 friends
and family members to a party there. She described the afternoon event -
with tables of food, a band, and guided tours of the sunset-beige tomb - as
a celebration of life's last stage.


''We call it our last double,'' Fertel said, referring to a traditional
style of housing in New Orleans with two separate living areas contained in
a house. ''We each have a side and plenty of room for our families.''


Metairie, a nondenominational cemetery built on what was once a race track,
dates to 1872. Visitors are provided with tape-recorded tours that point
out
the final resting places of former governors, generals, and statesmen. Many
are big tombs.


''I don't think any place in the world builds tombs like this,'' said
Richard Briede, vice president of Stewart Enterprises Inc., the owner and
operator of the cemetery. ''Not on the scale or in the number we do.''


A 32-by-32-foot plot for a tomb at Metairie costs $125,000; a one-time
maintenance fee runs about $2,000.


Fertel would not reveal what she paid for her tomb, but cemetery architect
Gil Bonnaffons Jr. said the structure probably cost about $500,000,
including the lot and design fees.


Metairie does not allow marble construction. It doesn't stand up well,
Bonnaffons said. Granite is preferred.


Al Copeland, founder of the Popeye's Fried Chicken chain, is completing a
mausoleum that will hold 14 caskets. Built on a raised platform with four
square fluted columns in front and a bronze double door, it could run about
$600,000, Bonnaffons said.


Above-ground burials are fashionable around New Orleans. The tradition,
dating to 1789 when St. Louis No. 1 Cemetery was established, springs from
the city's European roots, not a response to flooding or the city's
below-sea-level setting and swampy ground.


Tombs are grouped in small neighborhoods, with stone and cement buildings
on
winding streets.


The ''cities of the dead'' are a popular attraction, drawing thousands of
tourists to look at the crumbling bricks and fallen inscriptions. The lure
of Metairie Cemetery is more artistic.


Statues of mourning angels and grieving children line the streets. The
architecture includes tombs with beautiful stained-glass windows, modeled
after churches, pyramids, Roman shrines, and Islamic palaces.


The distinctive art recently led to a scheme to steal urns, statues, and
other artifacts and sell them to collectors. A prominent antiques dealer
and
four others received jail time for the venture.


Tombs are sometimes resold, Briede said. Perhaps the best-known case
occurred when the ornate tomb of a madam, Josie Arlington, was sold and
Arlington's remains were moved to a secret location. But visitors still
flock to see the statue of a woman with an arm beckoning to the tomb's
door.


Tombs in Louisiana are also reused.


State law allows the remains to be removed from the casket a year and a day
after the death. They then can be deposited in a special cache in the tomb,
the old coffin discarded and the space reused.


''We have generations of families interred in even the small tombs,''
Briede
said. ''They're really practical. And they're a good investment.''


This story ran on page A03 of the Boston Globe on 7/7/2000.
© Copyright 2000 Globe Newspaper Company.





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message d01af14b6iQ-3842-764+00.htm, number 312, was posted on Sat Jul 8 at 12:44:44
in reply to cf5687ebCZt-3837-35+00.htm
Re^2: Casket distribution

Mike
mike73coug@yahoo.com

I appreciate your frustration, but having been an independent service and merchandise dealer for many years in the cattle industry (before my current positon as a church business manager), most markets are driven by a complex mix of tradition and consumer attitude, and ya just have to fit in as best you can.  The operative "tradition" here is that most suppliers choose to distribue through liscened service providers, and it should be consumer demand rather than regulatory pressure that changes that.  Certainly the casket store pioneers are helping to "open things up".  But, my hunch is that most consumers would ultimately prefer to be able to buy a competitively priced compleat package of merchandise and service from one convenient source, rather than having to run around town putting all the pieces together, especially at the difficult time of a death.

[And as for hair dyes, Vets, etc. well, the reason might be consumer saftey. That fails with boxes.]
Actually no.  With non-percription or unregulated cosmetics, the same types of products, under different brand names, are available through retail outlets.  It is just a marketing choice of the supplier.  If I felt a certain brand or generic product met my needs, I went to a retailer.  If I prefered a certain brand or formulation, I could procure it from a liscened professional, and yes, it usually was more expensive, but I knew what I was getting.  In either case, I had a choice so as a consumer I never felt imposed upon.  And, I had the option of "shopping the professionals."  Just like funeral homes, priceing would vary between practicioners.  Also, the product would often be less expensive if it were purchased in conjunction with a service.  My point being that the practices that some find so appaling in the funeral industry are common in many others.  My sense of fairness says that IF there is to be a "regulatory shift" it should apply to commerce in general and not just single out the funeral homes.  For the same reason, I believe the relavent portions of the FTC rules should also equally apply to cemetaries and casket stores.

[And I'm not really up on all the auto dealers, but I think if I came up with enough cash, I could buy an area, to set up shop. So it isn't so errr- AS estricted to sell cars as it is to sell what some call a pc of furniture (know what I mean?)]
This is exactly my point.  If you "came up with enough cash" you could open a liscensed funeral establishment - then you could both buy the products you wanted to retail, and offer the consumer an affordable funeral!  You have all kinds of options: you can meet the requirements to obtain a professional liscense, hire liscensed funeral directors to work for you, or contract with a liscensed establishment to provide professional services.  In fact, I would guess it would be far easier and less restricted to open a funeral home in a give area then it would be to gain a dealer franchise from an automobile, industrial or farm equipment manufacturer.


Here in the Tri-Cities (metro area population, 150,000) in SE Washington State there is a new firm that, in my humble estimation, is the wave of the future.  A liscensed funeral director has opened The Casket Shop.  Rather than a selection room hidden in the back, hehind the arrangements room, that you only get to see if you are makeing "at need" or "pre-need" funeral arrangements, this firm offers an upfront, comfortable retail athmosphere that consumers are familiar and comfortable with.  One can window shop from the sidewalk, or return multiple times, to look at new selections, browse, become familiar and comfortable with a product one doesn't deal with frequently.  In addition to a selection of over 20 units, with several attractive wood venier, cloth covered and light gague steel units priced under $1,000, they have the catalogs available in the show room so one has access to a very broad selection range. And, yes, because they are a liscensed establishment, they offer the major brands (primarily Aurora now).  They also, of course have urns, memeoral mementos and markers.  BUT, they also offer compleate funeral service and cremation packages.  He has a herese and limousine, facilities available for preparation, and they use your home or church for visitations and the service.  His casket prices seem lower or very competitive than those I've seen on casket store web sites, and his service packages are the least cost in our area.  The critique from the standard funeral provider might be that he doesn't offer the traditional elegant "Funeral Home and Chapel".  But, my church is very elegant, so why should I pay for that overhead when I already pay for the church facilities through my contribution?

The big thing is that he offers compleate and flexible services and quality merchandise at an affordable price from one conveninet source, which not all funeral homes do and which casket stores can't.  I think this will be the wave of the future that best meets consumer needs.  That's my "2 cents worth", anyways.

Message d01af14b6iQ-3842-792+00.htm, number 313, was posted on Sat Jul 8 at 13:11:59
in reply to cf568687CZt-3842-690+00.htm
Re^2: Prices To Die For!

Mike
mike73coug@yahoo.com

When I lived in Colombia, South America a few years ago, I noticed that in the villages, many of which are over 300 years old, the municipal cemetary didn't seem very large, and there weren't any graves dateting back very far.  They usually had Mausoleums rather than ground burial.  It was explained to me that families didn't buy they cryp, but rather leased it for a period of time (10, 20 or 30 years).  Unless there was some reason for a delay or the remains needed to be shipped, embalming was uncommon and burial usually occured within 24 hours of death.  When the lease expired, the remaining skeleton was "disassembled" and placed in a much smaller box than the traditional full body casket.  This new casket was placed in a niche in the basement of the Church where the person was baptised, and would be permanent resting place.  Wood caskets are predominant in Colombia and the old casket would be burned at the cemetary.

I've read of a varitation of this in some asian countries, where land use density precluded expansive cemetaries, but some Christian families did not prefer direct cremation.  A traditinal burial would occur, and after a period of years, the remains would be disintered and cremated then, to make space for new burials.  The cremated remains would be placed in a columbarian at the cemetary.

Message cf24877bImK-3842-814-00.htm, number 314, was posted on Sat Jul 8 at 13:34:19
Consumer Deception In the Funeral Industry...

ValDan
oldeworldcasket@aol.com

"In yet another complaint, a Brooklyn woman had ordered a coffin for her father from Direct Casket. She said as soon as she told the funeral director that she would not be purchasing a casket, the tone of the conversation changed. First, the consumer said, the funeral director tried to talk her out of using Direct Casket, claiming their products are inferior. Then, the day before the funeral, the viewing was moved from 12 noon to 6 p.m. The funeral home claimed the casket arrived late and, therefore, the body was not yet ready for display. However, according to the consumer, the funeral home confirmed the day before that the casket had been delivered. And Direct Casket furnished a receipt showing the casket had been delivered two days before the scheduled viewing."

"And it is also important to note that SCI now has an even stronger interest in selling caskets - they now own Marsellus, which industry insiders describe as the Rolls Royce of caskets by industry insiders. Therefore, they are making an even larger profit for every Marsellus casket they can persuade the bereaved to purchase."

The entire document may be viewed at the following URL:

www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dca/html/dcafuneralreport.html

Message cf577cccLmM-3842-1028+00.htm, number 315, was posted on Sat Jul 8 at 17:08:41
in reply to d01af14b6iQ-3842-764+00.htm
Re^3: Casket distribution

webmaster
casketstores@email.com

And while some may not want to "shop" at that time, more and more are. There will always be those however, who think like your post. It is whatever they are most comfortable with, and are willing or able to afford, and there is nothing wrong in that either.

As for your seeing more casket stores owned by funeral directors, yep - that's happening too. That is why the shopper should always know who owns the establishment, as funeral homes that are NOT owned by large corp. are most always less expensive. As is the casket store's prices on caskets - that is not a licensed funeral director, that owner is more willing to share ways to save on other areas of the funeral also.

Message 3fd3b998zF7-3844-735-00.htm, number 316, was posted on Mon Jul 10 at 12:15:08
showroom closing

PAUL
casktstore@aol.com

Message cf248712ImK-3844-929-00.htm, number 317, was posted on Mon Jul 10 at 15:28:52
What Happened to CCUSA?

ValDan
oldeworldcasket@aol.com

Message 98a3c9bc1bg-3844-1317+00.htm, number 318, was posted on Mon Jul 10 at 21:56:58
in reply to 3fd3b998zF7-3844-735-00.htm
Re: showroom closing

ChuckG
cgalvin0970@my-deja.com

  I own and operate a funeral home in Eastern Mass., not too far from you.
  This shift in charges is nothing new, particularly with New England funeral homes, where many "snow birds" are shipped back for burial in caskets sold by funeral homes in states like Florida and Arizona.  We were losing casket sales to Sunbelt state funeral homes for decades before anyone even thought of opening casket stores.
  When I took over operation of my firm back in 1990, one of the first changes that I instituted was to begin a shift of principal profit generation from my casket and vault sales, to my services and facilities charges.  Thus insuring that even casketed ship-ins were profitable for me.  So now, 10 years later, the profit I earn on an 18Ga. steel casket represents only about 6% of a total average "traditional funeral" bill, which is nowhere near the 3X-5X mark-ups claimed by some retailers.  And, there are at least 5 other firms within just a few miles of mine who have been making the same changes over the past few years.  So chances are, there were probably a few in your area before you even opened your store.
  As far as the others who shifted after you arrived, well, that's competition.  In business, when you decide to compete directly with another business or industry, you have to realize that they will most likely turn around and compete back.  For the life of me, I will never understand why retailers are so surprised when funeral homes react like any other business and take measures to protect their market share.
  My firm has survived a depression, two world wars, a couple of stock market crashes, several hurricanes, and a tornado.  And after nearly a century, we are still in business and thriving!  A little competition keeps things interesting.  I am sorry to see you leave.

ChuckG

Message cf568751CZt-3845-600+00.htm, number 319, was posted on Tue Jul 11 at 10:01:30
in reply to 98a3c9bc1bg-3844-1317+00.htm
Re^2: showroom closing

savcash
a-team@stratos.net

Message 3fd3bb32zF7-3846-949+00.htm, number 320, was posted on Wed Jul 12 at 15:49:29
in reply to 98a3c9bc1bg-3844-1317+00.htm
Re^2: showroom closing

PAUL
casktstore@aol.com

>   I own and operate a funeral home in Eastern Mass., not too far from you.
>   This shift in charges is nothing new, particularly with New England funeral homes, where many "snow birds" are shipped back for burial in caskets sold by funeral homes in states like Florida and Arizona.  We were losing casket sales to Sunbelt state funeral homes for decades before anyone even thought of opening casket stores.
>   When I took over operation of my firm back in 1990, one of the first changes that I instituted was to begin a shift of principal profit generation from my casket and vault sales, to my services and facilities charges.  Thus insuring that even casketed ship-ins were profitable for me.  So now, 10 years later, the profit I earn on an 18Ga. steel casket represents only about 6% of a total average "traditional funeral" bill, which is nowhere near the 3X-5X mark-ups claimed by some retailers.  And, there are at least 5 other firms within just a few miles of mine who have been making the same changes over the past few years.  So chances are, there were probably a few in your area before you even opened your store.
>   As far as the others who shifted after you arrived, well, that's competition.  In business, when you decide to compete directly with another business or industry, you have to realize that they will most likely turn around and compete back.  For the life of me, I will never understand why retailers are so surprised when funeral homes react like any other business and take measures to protect their market share.
>   My firm has survived a depression, two world wars, a couple of stock market crashes, several hurricanes, and a tornado.  And after nearly a century, we are still in business and thriving!  A little competition keeps things interesting.  I am sorry to see you leave.

>ChuckG

>Paul
Hello ChuckG
I would like to clear a few things up regarding your statements.
First of all we are not closing our operation we are streamlining our operation by cutting our overhead and operating as a web-based/in-home sales business, we will now be able to devote more dollars to advertising our "true" wholesale prices to the public. The Casket Store theme is still alive because we are in business to offer the public quality products at a price so low, even a funeral home would find attractive. So keep yours eyes open for our ads. Just like your business had to adapt and survive during changing times so to will our business.
Regarding local funeral homes lowering their prices, we had expected this would happen and we do understand their fight for survival. This response is acceptable as long as there is no collusive activity going on between local homes. We could have pushed some of our potential customers to file a number of complaints with the FTC regarding violations of the Funeral Rule, but we did not want to ad undue stress to grieving families. One pertains to a New Bedford funeral home's director telling a customer that "if you try to bring a casket here from The Casket Store then you can make your arrangements at another funeral home" this poor women was bullied out of saving her family money because she wasn't about to change homes seeing this was the home that her family always uses. Pretty sad huh.
Hope to meet you someday, that's if I haven't already.

Message c7ae96baNCw-3847-829-00.htm, number 321, was posted on Thu Jul 13 at 13:49:52
Alabama Funerals

Turbo5
dsel196y@mindspring.com

The funeral saga continues in Alabama.  The court which issued a statement in March 1999 that, "use of a casket provided by the family of the deceased does not create an oversale," this concerning Brown Service Funeral Policies has now changed its oppinion, stating, "this most recent order provides that a casket purchased by the family from a third party likewise creates an oversale,", March 2000.

What do you think guys?  How do you think this fits in with the FTC ruling of 1984 and 1994?

Turbo5

Message cdbcc6b2KyG-3848-470-00.htm, number 322, was posted on Fri Jul 14 at 07:49:39
Belly Up Casket Stores Confused

James Johnston
jj@hotmail.com

Message ac904314LVj-3848-573-00.htm, number 323, was posted on Fri Jul 14 at 09:33:15
Anyone making caskets here?

Fred Ward
fward@masshistology.com

Message cf577c51LmM-3848-655-00.htm, number 324, was posted on Fri Jul 14 at 10:56:22
Reminder

webmaster
casketstores@email.com

So many casket stores open up and think they will get rich overnight, when they don't, they go belly up.  They really think the funeral industry will sit back & keep the same old prices while retailers clean up, NOT (clipped)

While free speech is grand, the poster isn't being honest with his email, ideas are not explained as to where he obtained the false information AND he continued with other garbage (even in the title). So the whole post was zapped (and will continue to be if it does not conform to the rules of the page posted at the top.

Here IS a good article with data showing where the ideas come from, about e-retailers going belly up: www.plumbingmart.com/longevitycounts.html Retail is retail, no matter what you are selling, you need more than just product. However, that said, the lie above about getting rich overnight shows little knowledge what it takes to open any business. And as far as prices go, as long as the FTC rules are followed, no one has any problem with any competition. The idea of "sit back and keep old prices" well, if that is what is published on the casket price list, that is what they need to go with.

Message d01af2ae6iQ-3848-950+00.htm, number 325, was posted on Fri Jul 14 at 15:49:44
in reply to ac904314LVj-3848-573-00.htm
Re: Anyone making caskets here?

Mike
mike73coug@yahoo.com

Fred, check out this link for the information you are looking for
www.cfsaa.org/BasicInformationCFSAA/Default.htm

Message cdbcc0bcKyG-3849-52+00.htm, number 326, was posted on Sat Jul 15 at 00:51:44
in reply to cf577c51LmM-3848-655-00.htm
Re: Listen Bozo

James Johnston
jj@hotmail.com

Can't a guy have a "will beat any price by 20 percent policy" HURTS HUH?

Message cdbcc817KyG-3849-1353-00.htm, number 327, was posted on Sat Jul 15 at 22:33:30
Casket Retailers Cry

James Johnston
jj@hotmail.com

Dont bank your business on a casket price list and dont get mad when faced with competition!

Message cf56875dLmM-3849-1357-00.htm, number 328, was posted on Sat Jul 15 at 22:38:48
Combined forces & in the mailbag

webmaster
casketstores@email.com

 If you are interested you can reach me at: (snipped - NCRA members, please email webmaster to get further details and responses)(end copy)
The established casket stores know how this person feels and why. The strength in numbers
from our NCRA org. is important, also perhaps  are partnerships with "like" sales and this opportunity might be something well worth looking into. (vaults, monuments, tents, etc.)
And as others see the NCRA as a strong force and offer helping hands such as above, you know we are doing the right thing!
Also, we welcome more new members this month (Co. & Fl)
I am assembling an email to go out shortly, to members. Have a nice week end, Rob
ps. Also heard "first call" pick ups for funeral homes are a new service some retailers are adding/ doing (pays quite well, check requirements in your state, most no license needed) so there are many items and revenues of income one might consider.

Message d01af1a46iQ-3850-658+00.htm, number 329, was posted on Sun Jul 16 at 10:58:00
in reply to cdbcc817KyG-3849-1353-00.htm
Re: Casket Retailers Cry

Mike
mike73coug@yahoo.com

>Dont bank your business on a casket price list and dont get mad when faced with competition!

Ah, I've been wanting to comment on this very topic.  I've seen several posts from retailers complaining about a funeral home spot matching the store price on a casket.  I can appreciate their frustration from when I was in sales.  For many years I provided both techinical services and biolgical products to the cattle industry (frozen semen for artificial insemination), and the market was full of independent retailers who sold just the product, with no service.  Now, appreciate my frustration with being called to provide technical services with a product purchased from someone else.  Charging a higher service fee wasn't often possible in a very competitive market (and not allowed for funeral directors).  The issue was simple - my product prices were always competitive with the current market and I just wouldn't be undersold, plain and simple.  A smaller margin was always better than no margin.

"We Won't Be Undersold" is now a very common philosophy in comerce, and the DCI retailers can't expect to be insulated from the market they choose to operate in.  IF funeral homes were to be required to have fixed casket prices, then retailers should also (which would mean bringing them under the Funeral Rule, which would be good in any event).

Message cf577c46CZt-3850-1291+00.htm, number 330, was posted on Sun Jul 16 at 21:32:06
in reply to d01af1a46iQ-3850-658+00.htm
welcome to combat warriors??(legal rights)

savcash
a-team@stratos.net

(copy in part)
      C.Pricing Strategies in Markets with Intense Price Competition
            1.Price Matching
                 a.A price-matching strategy entails an offer to meet any competitors price.
                 b.Price matching and Bertrand oligopoly
                      i.One-shot games - price matching keeps rivals from getting an
                        edge.
                      ii.Repeated games
                           a.an industry which adopts the policy can use it to implement
                             monopoly pricing and avoid price competition.
                                i.promise to match price reduces individual firm
                                  incentive to cut price.
                 c.Advantage of policy - customers expend resources tracking prices - firms
                   do not have to monitor rivals.
            2.Inside Business 11-2: Beat-or-Pay Strategies
                 a.Promise to pay $X if cannot beat a competitor's price given
                      i.the opportunity to beat the offer
                      ii.proof of purchase at a lower price
                 b.Two advantages
                      i.attracts customers
                      ii.discourages rivals from starting a price war.
(end copy) It would work for those in it for the short term, those
that want the "one-time" sale or those that don't care about the
reputation that they get. No thanks, not for the "cream of the crop"
companies that understand, these people are going thru enough at this
time, and the firm you are doing biz with should be first class, not any of the above.
----And if a funeral home would EVEN think about using this tatic, there are rules (check your state, and retailers, if a f.h. in your area commits to this, know your rights, and take action!!) (You might even print out your state's rules and post it in your shop, or send it to the local funeral home prior to any "meeting the price" so they know that they would have to comply, do all of the added the paperwork, inform all their customers(not just those smart about c.s. & neg), etc, etc.
www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dca/html/salesrule.html (copied in part)

Section 9. Part 7, Subchapter A, Chapter 5 of Title 6 of the Rules of the City of New York is
amended by repealing §5-105 and §5-106, by inserting new sections §5-102 and §5-103 to read
as follows and by amending current §5-102, §5-103 and §5-104 to read as follows:

§5-102 Lowest Priced Guaranteed Claims. An advertiser may not use the terms "lowest prices,"
"guaranteed lowest prices," "prices lower than anyone else," or similar terms, when generally
referring to all prices or the prices of specific items, unless the retailer has systematically monitored
and continues to monitor in the New York City trading area competitive prices on every such item to
which the claim refers and can substantiate such claims.

§5-103 Price Matching or Price Beating Claims. An advertiser may not use terms such as "we
will meet your best price" or "we won't be undersold" or similar terms which imply that the advertiser
will beat or match a competitor's price unless:

(a) the advertiser clearly and conspicuously discloses its price matching policy and any limitations;
and

(b) such policy does not require the taking of any action which places an unreasonable burden on
consumers; and

(c) the advertiser makes no claim that is subject to the provisions of §5-102 of this part.

§[5-102]5-104 Adequacy of Disclosures. (a) All disclosures and words of limitation or
qualification required by this part or §5-09 of these rules shall be [written or printed in letters at least
one third as high and one third as broad as the largest words or numbers appearing in the
advertisement which relate to or describe the reduction, discount or savings, but in no event less than
ten point type.] made clearly and conspicuously. An advertiser complies with this requirement only
by either:

(i) using written or printed letters that are at least one third as large as the largest sized letters or
numbers appearing in the advertisement which describe the reduction, discount or savings, but in no
event in smaller than 10 point type, and by using an asterisk or other similar identifying mark to refer
a consumer to the place in the advertisement where the required disclosures and words of limitation
or qualification are placed in the advertisement; or

(ii) placing the required disclosures and words of limitation or qualification in 10 point type
immediately adjacent to the place in the advertisement where the reduction, discount or savings claim
to which it relates appears in the advertisement.

§[5-103]5-105 Records Required. (a) Each person who advertises or represents the existence of
a discount, reduction or savings shall for [three]six months maintain records demonstrating
compliance with this part at his principal place of business within the City of New York or at a
location where such records are normally maintained by such person.

Example: An advertiser who advertises "20 percent off brand X cameras" must maintain records
demonstrating that the reduction is from its[the] bona fide selling price. If the cameras were last sold
at such lower price eleven months ago, the advertiser must retain the records indicating the earlier
price. These records must be kept for a period of [three]six months after the sale is over.

(b) Where the Commissioner of Consumer Affairs [or her delegate] requests a person to produce by
mail information or records to demonstrate compliance with this part, and the information, or original,
carbon, photographic or electrostatic copies of the records are available in the company's files, the
person shall mail a copy of such information to the person requesting it within seven business days
after receipt of the request unless such time period is extended [by the Chief of the Law Enforcement
Division]. Where the information is available to the person but not in his or her possession, or where
the record must be reconstructed (e.g., where they have been stored in the memory bank of a
computer), the person shall mail a copy of such information to the person requesting it within a
reasonable period of time, not to exceed [sixty]thirty [business] days, after receipt of the request
unless such time period is extended[ by the Chief of the Law Enforcement Division]. In lieu of mailing
requested information or records to the Commissioner, a person may grant access to the files for
purpose of examination and to copy documentary evidence by advising the Commissioner in writing
within 5 business days after receipt of the request that such access will be granted provided the
information or records are kept in New York City.

[(c) No action shall be maintained by the Commissioner under Administrative Code, §20-703(c)
merely for failure to maintain or produce records required by this section. However, all other
penalties provided by §20-703 shall apply.]

§[5-104]5-106 [Regulations] Rule Sections 5-06 and 5-12 not Affected. Nothing in this part
repeals or modifies §§5-06 and 5-12 or any portion thereof. In the event of any inconsistency, the
advertiser [should]shall comply with the requirements of §§5-06 or 5-12, as the case may be.

Statement of Basis and Purpose: Part 7, the "Consumer Protection Law" Subchapter A, of
Chapter 5, Title 6 of the Rules of the City of New York defines and specifies what price savings and
price comparison claims are prohibited as unfair trade practices in advertising and how price savings
and price comparison claims may be properly advertised. Part 7 was originally promulgated on
January 31, 1972 and last amended on August 3, 1972.

Experience, however, has shown that understanding, compliance, and enforcement of the rule can be
substantially improved if key terms and requirements are more clearly and plainly stated. These
amendments to Part 7 would clarify the meaning of key definitions and require advertisers to clearly
disclose the specific time period which is the basis for establishing the reference price to which
savings claims are compared; the meaning of the reference price being used as a basis for
comparison, such as whether it refers to one at which actual sales were made or only a price at
which items were offered for sale; and the duration of a sale and how it must be calculated and
identified. The amendments also clarify permissible price comparison claims that can be made in
reference to competitors' or other advertisers' prices; specify the requirements to be satisfied by
retailers who advertise price beating or price guarantee claims; and requires advertisers to
substantiate all price savings and price comparison claims.

The purpose of these amendments is to ensure that advertisers clearly understand what price savings
and comparison claims may be made without deceiving consumers; that consumers clearly
understand the meaning of advertised savings and comparative pricing claims; and that all advertisers
compete on a level playing field.

Message cc60183cPRl-3851-6+00.htm, number 331, was posted on Mon Jul 17 at 00:07:57
in reply to d01af1a46iQ-3850-658+00.htm
Re^2: Casket Retailers Cry

De'Lores P. Arline
delarl@usa.net

"Moreover, you cannot alter your prices based upon the particular selections of each customer. Such a practice also would defeat the purpose of the Rule to give people accurate, itemized price information that affords them the opportunity to select the arrangements they want."

Quoted from "Complying With The Funeral Rule" a business guide produced by the Federal Trade Commission, August, 1995 -- page 30, "What Consumers Cannot Be Required to Purchase".

It would seem that if the FD had the best interest of the consumer, there would be no need to lower their casket prices for any reason. Wouldn't/shouldn't the first price be the best offer? This practice would impress upon me that I would be taken advantage of if I had no knowledge of other casket sources.



On Sun Jul 16, Mike wrote
-------------------------
>On Sat Jul 15, James Johnston wrote
>-----------------------------------
>>Casket sellers cry when they find out a price list is not carved in stone. When you buy a car some will pay full sticker but smart ones dicker.  The same is true on a casket.

>>Dont bank your business on a casket price list and dont get mad when faced with competition!

>Ah, I've been wanting to comment on this very topic.  I've seen several posts from retailers complaining about a funeral home spot matching the store price on a casket.  I can appreciate their frustration from when I was in sales.  For many years I provided both techinical services and biolgical products to the cattle industry (frozen semen for artificial insemination), and the market was full of independent retailers who sold just the product, with no service.  Now, appreciate my frustration with being called to provide technical services with a product purchased from someone else.  Charging a higher service fee wasn't often possible in a very competitive market (and not allowed for funeral directors).  The issue was simple - my product prices were always competitive with the current market and I just wouldn't be undersold, plain and simple.  A smaller margin was always better than no margin.

>"We Won't Be Undersold" is now a very common philosophy in comerce, and the DCI retailers can't expect to be insulated from the market they choose to operate in.  IF funeral homes were to be required to have fixed casket prices, then retailers should also (which would mean bringing them under the Funeral Rule, which would be good in any event).

Message d01af21c6iQ-3851-1014+00.htm, number 332, was posted on Mon Jul 17 at 16:54:22
in reply to d01af1a46iQ-3850-658+00.htm
Re^2: Casket Retailers Cry

Mike
mike73coug@yahoo.com

As to the legality, I honestly don't know, I'm not in the death care industry, I'm mearly a consumer expressing what I feel would be helpful to consumers.  But, the citation by Betty was from New York, and I live in Washington.  The citation by De'Lores P. Arline would seem to me to be more applicable to service fees from the GPL than to the casket price list.  Reviewing this from the Federal Trade Commission regarding the casket price list www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/funeral/casprice.htm  I don't find a prohibition to funeral homes working with consumers on merchandise pricing.  It is understood that they may not charge more than their published prices, I sincerely don't understand why they shouldn't be able to lower their charges when a family's circumstances warrant it.

Message cf56852eLmM-3851-1181+00.htm, number 333, was posted on Mon Jul 17 at 19:42:35
in reply to d01af21c6iQ-3851-1014+00.htm
Written in concrete and confirmation

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