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Page 4 of the NCRA Bulletin board

Message d1b0fc56DSW-3653-863-90.htm, number 50, was posted on Sat Jan 1 at 14:23:38
Welcome and Happy New Year, 01-01-2000

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


The Casket Store Discussion Group is back online. Some of you may know we had a hacker get into the system and mess up posts and make changes to the old board. I believe I have fixed this and hopefully they will not be able to do this again. If you are the hacker please get a life and don't attempt to mess around here.

Everyone will need to register again and please keep comments professional. Sorry for the inconvienence.

Happy  New    Year


Message 98a3c5ccz5a-3653-990-07.htm, number 51, was posted on Sat Jan 1 at 16:30:41
YEAR 2000

competitive caskets inc.
jjjgjs@aol.com


REMEBER THIS IS OUR YEAR...!!!!!!!

Message cf5686d0WcW-3653-1056+07.htm, number 52, was posted on Sat Jan 1 at 17:36:32
in reply to 98a3c5ccz5a-3653-990-07.htm

Re: YEAR 2000

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


On Sat Jan 1, competitive caskets inc. wrote
--------------------------------------------
>REMEBER THIS IS OUR YEAR...!!!!!!!
---Gotta be, first day and already needed first thing this am.. Sold 18 g to woman for her 85 pound mother. Lady had researched and knew how to bypass 2 BIG charges from her home CA. mortician & her funeral home that she is using in Indiana too by calling the In. one first.  
Happy New yr everyone. Gosh, y2k not so much a big deal so far.
And to start the new yr off right,(what happens when 2 can't get along sometimes) with a smile.----

Dead Goldfish
=============

Little Tim was in the garden filling in a hole when his neighbor peered
over the fence. Interested in what the cheeky-faced youngster was up to,
he politely asked, "What are you up to there, Tim?"

"My goldfish died," replied Tim tearfully, without looking up, "and I've
just buried him."

The neighbor was concerned, "That's an awfully big hole for a goldfish,
isn't it?" Tim patted down the last heap of earth then replied, "That's
because he's inside your cat."

Submitted by ErikG3



Message cf5684a8WcW-3654-574-00.htm, number 54, was posted on Sun Jan 2 at 09:34:02
the cost of a funeral

savcash
a-team@stratos.net



back in the "old days"

www.herald-mail.com/news/1997/09/13/local/Undertaker__wife_amo.html

and embalming fluid's start

www.thehistorynet.com/AmericasCivilWar/articles/11962_text.htm


Message cf577c61QLz-3654-876-00.htm, number 55, was posted on Sun Jan 2 at 14:35:55
Dimensions In Wood, Urns (plus)

David Brooks
wonderthru@skybest.com


Our company, Dimensions In Wood, is currently setting up production to
manufacture wood urns. We would like to offer our services to you. We
can produce any style urn, and offer our products at tremendous savings in quantity.

For the past 10 years, we have catered to the furniture industry.
You can visit our website by clicking on the highlighted address below. When you arrive you will see furniture products that we have produced.

members.tripod.com/~RiverKansas/
Please contact us, if we can be of service. Thanks again.

David Brooks
Dimensions In Wood
PO Box 279
Sparta, NC 28675 (United States)
Fax 336-372-8214


Message cf5684a7DSW-3654-1155+00.htm, number 57, was posted on Sun Jan 2 at 19:15:00
in reply to 0436a9c8Z1y-3654-1070-00.htm

In the mailbag

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


Your message is not clear. You should restate it, I also emailed you to confirm the same. Whatever it takes, this bb will remain beneficial, without confusion and harassment of any individual. So, if the message is questionable or the email not good, it will be deleted.

However, in the mailbag news: As the NCRA grows again - we have more
members signing up, and applications being processed.

Also, a store owner (non member) that had sent in: "Had casket store business in Louisville, KY and it has not done well. Subsequently, I closed the doors of business and still have a quantity of caskets and urns available for sale. (reserved) address is above. Any help you may offer will be appreciated."

If you are in the market for more inventory, please email this NCRA webmaster for the details on the above.

And, an advertisement from  www.e-ternity.net if any retailers wish to exchange links with them, just contact their webmaster for information


Message cdbcc6aeZ1y-3654-1232+00.htm, number 58, was posted on Sun Jan 2 at 20:32:00
in reply to cf5684a7DSW-3654-1155+00.htm

So let me get this strait

James Johnson
jjohn@mail.com


Is it true, a member speaks out on this board the message will be deleted?

I think all ad's should be banned and anyone should be able to get a free directory listing member or not.


Message cf568646WcW-3654-1406-00.htm, number 59, was posted on Sun Jan 2 at 23:26:57
who's alive and who's dead

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


This is a neat site, if you think someone is not dead - check out the person here!
www.neosoft.com/~davo/livedead/
And looking back into the eighteenth century and before, funeral customs, laying out the dead & burials. xroads.virginia.edu/~UG97/albion/adeath.html

ps. James, not straight, you have it wrong. I can tell you from past experience,  Member or not, if the post is following the bulletin board rules - it stays. If it doesn't it goes. We all like it that way.


Message 98a3c554Cys-3655-1158-00.htm, number 60, was posted on Mon Jan 3 at 19:18:23
Put your money where your mouth is or shut up!

Thomas
tomj@cs.net


If we all caughed up a grand that would be 50 grand and we could be bulldogs. ninty five dollars just makes us whimpy watchdog's.

A grand is about one sale if we wait for the FTC we will loose more than a grand when we sell off our useless inventory.

The NFDA is taunting us they figure we won't ever do anything about the sham. They have said laws are on the books for the sham, so why not use the courts.  You know they are right. We need to hire an attorney pay him/her well and kick some butt. The other option is wait and go under.


Message cf568548P5m-3656-45-00.htm, number 61, was posted on Tue Jan 4 at 00:45:38
We made the news

George V.
gvict@yahoo.com


Sometime ago in the News of the Weird, gov. court arguement about murder and easy access to caskets. If you read past half way (big chuckle on the way there though)
www.nine.org/notw/1999/570

Message cf568548DSW-3656-146+00.htm, number 62, was posted on Tue Jan 4 at 02:26:00
in reply to 98a3c554Cys-3655-1158-00.htm

Re: Put your money where your mouth is or shut up!

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


I agree and so do several members. It is something we all need to think about. This is a high prioity  of what is on the agenda for consideration. This is one in the works, www.fosters.com/news99d/october/20/bu1020j.htm  and another
www.ij.org/media/economic_liberty/tennessee/cmellorOPED.shtml
and the wheels are rolling in another instance. However, these things take time.

fp3.in-tch.com/www.billingsnews.com/current/archive/19990127/page1.htm


Message cf568660WcW-3656-538+00.htm, number 63, was posted on Tue Jan 4 at 09:14:58
in reply to cf568548P5m-3656-45-00.htm

Re: We made the news- 1st issue,2000

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


This publication is not "casket store friendly"  and I am linking this here to show, again, we are making the news! And it seems interesting that they have choose to label one of the TWO  articles "Showdown"
Wonder why......www.abbottandhast.com/mmcurrent.html  But you can see, we are no longer some small threat, some joke, some toy or some gone tomorrow HOPE that WAS rumored about. Yep, 2000 sure does look good!

Message cf568562WcW-3658-755-00.htm, number 64, was posted on Thu Jan 6 at 12:35:56
The Business of Death, video

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


from A&E TV. They had a classroom mortuary documentary on TV last night, I missed it :( But in researching their site, they have this
50 minute video
store.aetv.com/cgi-bin/ae.storefront/0/Ext/OutsideFrame/UT/32/Product/17569

The program, did anyone catch it?
www.aande.com/class/admin/study_guide/archives/aetv_guide.0145.html and the last of the serieswww.aande.com/class/admin/study_guide/archives/aetv_guide.0147.html tonight. But the video for sale is not supposed to be about The Great Pharaohs of Egypt but rather:.......follows
                    several morticians-to-be as they complete
                    their training with a trimester in the school's
                    own funeral parlor, honing their embalming
                    and "restorative" skills. But it is not an
                    education that can be left behind at the end of
                    the day; many of the students live and work in
                    funeral homes as they put themselves
                    through school. In candid, probing interviews,
                    these young practitioners talk about why they
                    chose to become morticians. And in traveling
                    with students, teachers, and certified.....

Maybe we should start a lending library. There are a few other videos for sale about this trade that I wouldn't mind seeing.
ps./ I bought out a Col. Oh. c.s. - does anyone need some Batesville casket covers-thick white plastic[3-5mils]? email me if so for further information.


Message cdbcc6abz5a-3662-326-00.htm, number 65, was posted on Mon Jan 10 at 05:25:37
funeral rule?

competitive caskets inc.
jjjgjs@aol.com


ANY NEWS YET??????

Message cf5686eaLmM-3662-958+00.htm, number 66, was posted on Mon Jan 10 at 15:58:26
in reply to cdbcc6abz5a-3662-326-00.htm

Re: funeral rule?

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


There are no new releases of any kind. I did find this old news, from back in the Spring of 1997. The FTC frop program near the bottom of the page. Due to the review, one needs to wonder why they state that it was working so well. Yet it was due to the people writing in and the number of complaints that they received.
www.ftc.gov/reports/21cent/antic21.htm  Anticipating the 21st century


Message cf5686eaCZt-3662-972-00.htm, number 67, was posted on Mon Jan 10 at 16:12:28
short stories

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


Maybe some of you can share some stories that you have run across, or have had from experience, in life, in biz/from customers or in store.
This was on the web, found it interesting -about a young boy & death
experiences  www.ftc.gov/reports/21cent/antic21.htm

And this is a story to live by: tftd.passageway.com/extras/life.html  Got any to share?


Message cdbcc71cz5a-3663-378-00.htm, number 68, was posted on Tue Jan 11 at 06:19:06
real story

competitive caskets inc.
jjjgjs@aol.com


deliverd a casket monday afternoon in park ridge, n.j.funeral director opens and gives the casket a real good look over...so my driver asked her to sign rec. report.....well she wont sign(which i know they dont have too)but guess what she does offer??? "when the bottom falls out come back i will sign it.. what a lovely lady!!!  little did she know ,that i called the family and told them what happen! (little short story) george

Message d1770bdfCZt-3663-511+00.htm, number 69, was posted on Tue Jan 11 at 08:32:18
in reply to cdbcc71cz5a-3663-378-00.htm

Message d1770bdfCZt-3663-527+00.htm, number 69, was edited on Tue Jan 11 at 08:47:53
and replaces message d1770bdfCZt-3663-511+00.htm

Re: real story

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


Last week, Delivered one New Yorker Poplar wood casket to Congers N.Y. Ms. bought it sight unseen (no photo on site of this one, but she knew what she wanted.) for her Dad. She calls this morning and tells me it was beautiful and "I just thhink you people are wonderful, you saved me over $1,000.00" Everything went well.

Same week, woman bought a Rosewood, delivered to Ind. Again, all went well (she calulated I saved her over $800.00), but this time the f.h. assisted in unloading. Above, they did not,(but they did let him use the church truck, heard some-few- don't even do that) but hey no sweat.
I just wonder if the funeral home offers to help unload if it comes from another supplier,or delivery people, for other caskets or for like flowers. The delivery people just hand it to them at the door.
But I can live without the assist from them in helping the delivery man in unloading, just don't take our people in a room where they are doing embaming anymore to set the casket (no sign, no warning). That was rude!

[ This message was edited on Tue Jan 11 by the author ]


Message d1770bdfLmM-3663-625+00.htm, number 70, was posted on Tue Jan 11 at 10:25:37
in reply to d1770bdfCZt-3663-527+00.htm

Re^2: real story

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


" He said Missouri City is growing
      and eventually there will be funeral homes, chapels, casket stores, and monument
      companies."
www.ci.mocity.tx.us/council/cminutes/991004m.htm See section d -1/2 way down - but it was rejected, on the first hearing. The funeral home would remind people of death each time they drove by. Are they in the 20th century?

Message cf577ca3CZt-3667-123-00.htm, number 71, was posted on Sat Jan 15 at 02:03:34
how2.com

savcash
a-team@stratos.net



www.how2hq.com/how2home/relationships/extended/hm02ex04/hm02ex0400.htm

It's a start at a decent  tutorial  - they also have one more on how to arrange a funeral, again - just the tip of the iceburg. But both informative. Many, many how tos, just about everything, and more!


Message cf5686e2LmM-3667-1119-00.htm, number 72, was posted on Sat Jan 15 at 18:40:45
Message cf5686e2LmM-3667-1125-00.htm, number 73, was posted on Sat Jan 15 at 18:46:22
Zip codes, Time zones, Area Codes & Map route, miles

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


In response to the questions:
"Do you know of a web page that has telephone area codes listed in numerical order. Reason: Sometimes I get calls on my voice mail with a phone number to call, and I'd like to know what time zone it is in."
 The link to bookmark for this handy AREA CODE LISTING is SuperPhone.net/areacode.html  They also have a page broken down by state.

And the site to keep for up to the minute WORLD TIME ZONES http://www.isbister.com/worldtime/www.isbister.com/worldtime/www.isbister.com/worldtime/

Now what is missing?? Oh yeah, the zip codes can be found at: Search both by state or zip to find information www.usps.gov/ncsc/lookups/lookups.htm

And of course, a map to show how many miles it is. It also generates a map for easy directions: roadmaps.lycos.com:90/cgi-bin/mqtripplus

In case you misplace your bookmark, these pages will also be linked at our classified site. And, all NCRA members should have an email today from me/ webmaster.
If you didn't get it for some reason, please email me to let me know. Later, Rob


[ This message was edited on Sat Jan 15 by the author ]


Message cf5685c6LmM-3670-879+00.htm, number 74, was posted on Tue Jan 18 at 14:40:27
in reply to cf5686e2LmM-3667-1125+00.htm

Text to web, Translate & Travel urls

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


These are tools to add to your collection. Please see the link at the bottom for the archive number 3, www.casketstores.com/archive3/pg3.html and at the bottom of that page, you will see that the Text2Web  tool link (has &) can turn any text into a ready made HTML document. www.virdi.demon.co.uk/

Also, don't ingore your foriegn visitors. These sites "will translate a whole page or just an email received from a  foreign language, or to a foreign language so you can can communicate!" Very impressive - free and simple to do.

These sites offer translation services:
babelfish.altavista.com/
translator.go.com/ - check your site or this home page here - wow
La asociación del minorista nacional del ataúd que
             una organización fundó en 1997 dedicado para
             oponer legal actividad contra competitiva por la
             industria fúnebre.
www.dictionary.com/translate/
www.voila.com/Services/Translate/

And if you or your visitors need to arrange any travel, overnights, etc. www.travellerseek.com/ is a new  search site with all kinds of information.


Message cf56849fP5m-3671-698-00.htm, number 75, was posted on Wed Jan 19 at 11:38:37
Pre-paid funeral contracts or Totten trust

George V.
gvict@yahoo.com





                Anticipating Death's Details
                Pre-paid Plan Unsettles Customer

www.newlondonday.com/special/funeral4.htm


Message cf5687a9CZt-3671-1337-00.htm, number 77, was posted on Wed Jan 19 at 22:17:17
Take an IQ test and beat ME

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


I laughed when I saw it said 60 min. to take the quiz. Then I looked at the clock and started. An hr to kill?? 1/2 thru I would have thought about quitting, but was interested to see if it gave the correct answers, and it wasn't so bad (but math not a real strong suit) and I really wanted to see my score. WELL If I tested this high ("above population average, but in normal range", but not in the next group that was "significantly ABOVE average")
I wonder how Robin and Austin, (if you're reading, where is everyone? - lots of readers and short on posters all of a sudden??)If you're hesitating because the posts were zapped, we have it under control. So, how about some of you others - see how you do on this?
Hope you try it, it was a challenge. www.queendom.com/iq.html but interesting.
So, get above the 103 that I got to beat me & post your score, if you dare.

Scroll on down the site to the first question and begin....looking to see who might reply ;-)


Message ce9cf221RN9-3672-1025+00.htm, number 78, was posted on Thu Jan 20 at 17:04:42
in reply to cf5687a9CZt-3671-1337-00.htm

Re: Take an IQ test and beat ME

robin
jtbod1@netscape.net


OK.  I did it.  121.  Though I'm not a fan of standardized tests, I've been doing OK with these things since the high school days...


Message cf56865bLmM-3672-1314+00.htm, number 79, was posted on Thu Jan 20 at 21:55:46
in reply to cf56849fP5m-3671-698-00.htm
Message cf56865bLmM-3672-1314+00.htm, number 79, was edited on Fri Jan 21 at 01:14:52
Familymoney.com's article about this subject. Also, new poll on home page.

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


This is what the Family Money site had to say about this subject.
www.familymoney.com/articles/deathandmoney-5.htm

They say the pre need plans at the local funeral home are not the best way to go, no surprise. But the word getting out like it is, is a change.

And an unrelated poll - to the pre need or not - is now up on the home page. Check it out!

On Wed Jan 19, George V. wrote
------------------------------
>>
>
>                 Anticipating Death's Details
>                 Pre-paid Plan Unsettles Customer

>www.newlondonday.com/special/funeral4.htm

[ This message was edited on Fri Jan 21 by the author ]


Message cdbcc941I28-3673-1101-00.htm, number 80, was posted on Fri Jan 21 at 18:21:14
WEBMASTER PLEASE PHRASE YOUR POLL QUESTION IN ENGLISH

BENJI MADI WAY
benji@esp.com


NO COMPREHEDE

Message cf568488LmM-3673-1352+00.htm, number 81, was posted on Fri Jan 21 at 22:35:51
in reply to cdbcc941I28-3673-1101-00.htm

Re: WEBMASTER PLEASE PHRASE

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


But it is and others find it just fine. One is limited to space however.

Here is a copy of the press release sent out to the newswires, I will place the link up when it is published:

Have you ever had to "arrange" a funeral?

The National Casket Retailer's Association (NCRA) has a one question poll
up on their site:
www.casketstores.com  to find out the typical age, gender and if the
"arranger" makes these
decisions singularly, or as a couple or group. Please stop by and vote.

The NCRA is a funeral industry watchdog group, with many pages of
information on their site to inform the public of what is happening in the
funeral industry trade. There is also a bulletin board for discussions or
questions, a link page showing resources and places for assistance, a store
directory of retailers and a classified page to list your want ads or check
out for offerings and more information.

The purchase of funeral services and related goods, has been brought out of
the dark in recent years.
Since a person only arranges one or two in a lifetime, it is not something
that they get good at. However, it might  be one of the largest
expenditures you make that year, so education on how to go about it is
imperative. The use of the internet and obtaining books that detail this
subject is growing daily.  No longer are people willing to let a "traditional" mindset
or people be in control of their pocketbook. Or even, the situation.
The funeral industry is changing fast. Please stop by and let us know your
answer to our poll.


Message cf568502CZt-3676-650-00.htm, number 84, was posted on Mon Jan 24 at 10:49:51
press release, Yahoo /500 other

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


Internet sites and mags/newspapers (deleted prior post to correct link & add at bottom)
But I  Found it first! This should be great exposure for the group!!
And to see how much the answer will change or not will be interesting.
It is going to run in several newspapers, and on several internet pages.
businesswire.com (released Fri.1/21/00 they work quick ;-)and several other press news sites.


( BW)(MI-NATL-CASKET-RETAIL) The National Casket Retailer's
Association --NCRA-- is Taking a Poll of the Demographics of the People
Who Have Ever Had to "Arrange" a Funeral

www.businesswire.com/cgi-bin/f_headline.cgi?day3/200211427&ticker= If this link does not work, you may need to go to the above link and put in Fri 21st, and it brings it up.
Yahoo link biz.yahoo.com/bw/000121/mi_natl_ca_1.html


Message cf568502CZt-3676-743+00.htm, number 85, was posted on Mon Jan 24 at 12:22:41
in reply to ce9cf221RN9-3672-1025+00.htm

Re^2: knew you'd whoop me ;-)DNC

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


Thanks for taking the time!

Message cf56859dLmM-3676-1096-00.htm, number 86, was posted on Mon Jan 24 at 18:17:03
Bringing more on the Internet/ in the mailbag

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


A Site that is for family members to add a memorial on-line page. It also has many links to visit. Look up "funeral planning" and see your NCRA, we were invited to list. Another  benefit for NCRA member's pages and information from this great site, by others asking to link to us. There are many links at this e-ternity site to learn, ask, post  and shop.

www.e-ternity.net/

And, you might consider checking out the idea of putting your store name on the "web ring" However, some marketing industry experts say "inviting others to leave your site may not be a good return on your advertising dollar" Also, the image loads slow and will take more time for the page to open to your guests. Some say you have just a few seconds to capture their attention. It could be placed on a links page, instead of the home page. Let me know if you think this site should be added to the webring, or if any retailer wants to add independently.  However, it is a choice. Remember, you heard it here first - and it was marked: "An invatation" I am of the opinion that it would be better to place the "web ring" on the links page here as a group for the exposure, and sharing of these many pages of information. Please let me know your thoughts on this ASAP, please.
In the mailbag: Dear Fellow Industry Member:

We have just started a new web ring to connect web sites in the funeral
and cemetery industry. It is a totally free service that will allow site
visitors to quickly find other sites of interest.

We market monuments and memorials online, but many of our visitors ask
for information on other sites. In the future, we plan just to refer
them to the web ring since the number of sites to track is astronomical.

If you would like to look at the ring or are interested in joining, the
web ring home page is at the following address:

www.nvo.com/finalplans/ringhome/

Like we said, it is a free service and should prove useful to both the
consumer and to the web site owner.

If you are not the technical wizard of your web site, just pass this
message on to your webmaster. When you join the ring, the proper HTML
code is emailed to you for insertion into your site.

Sincerely,

Ed Phillips



Message cf577c88LmM-3679-712+00.htm, number 90, was posted on Thu Jan 27 at 11:54:07
in reply to cf56859dLmM-3676-1096-00.htm

Resources on the internet+ (MSN news, embalmer)+ Jewish

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


Many helpful links of all kinds
members.tripod.com/~DianneBrownson/passages.html

Embalmer catches TB while working on dead man (1st case ever)
www.msnbc.com/news/362392.asp?0m=B15L

A range of questions received and answered by Bet - Olam Funeral Director's //good reading
www.starnet.com.au/tempbeth/funerals/a_range_of_questions_received_an.html

Also, heard rumors about retailer's store chain, anyone else?


Message cdbcc436hE0-3679-900-00.htm, number 91, was posted on Thu Jan 27 at 15:00:00
I would like a phone ringer add.

Floyd Hoke
hokef@aol.com


I am in need of a news paper add that will make the phone ring, does anyone have ideas?

Message cf5685efCZt-3679-1113+00.htm, number 92, was posted on Thu Jan 27 at 18:34:03

Message cf5685efCZt-3679-1124+00.htm, number 92, was edited on Thu Jan 27 at 18:44:12
and replaces message cf5685efCZt-3679-1113+00.htm

how about a free ad?

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


--One idea is a free offer that I passed on & was  used for the NCRA press release.
I will pass it on here, since you asked Floyd. But you need to do it
prior to 1/31/2000 (about 225-250 words, whatever you can make newsworthy, even the local newspapers you choose get the release tho-
so it will be picked up by your local clients) And free is always good~(if you want assist, email me) there may be a section in the newspaper elsewhere where you could place a small ad too.
---copy---
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---end copy---
I used it for web cards discount
And this is a link I wanted to share, to see "people are changing"
and that news is spreading.
www.detnews.com/1999/religion/9911/02/11030008.htm
And Batesville buys from other suppliers, is this a surprise?
www.spokane.net/news-story-body.asp?Date=012700&ID=s736519&cat=section.Business       Casket company razed---
Now, if we could all use it, and we can, in all the states that your stores are in, it would be an attention getter that might make that phone ring more! By 31st tho - and if it's  interesting and newsworthy, more will read it (they will print it regardless tho.) If you do this, why not share it here?
Looking forward if anyone has other ideas to share here too......

[ This message was edited on Thu Jan 27 by the author ]


Message 98a3c5548xx-3680-380+00.htm, number 93, was posted on Fri Jan 28 at 06:19:57
in reply to cdbcc436hE0-3679-900-00.htm

Re: Forget about it!

james brown
jb@gkgkjg.net


Why don't you advertise low prices, you guys buy overpriced caskets then overcharge for them ($50 less than funeral home price) and don't know why biz is bad?
You only have one thing to offer, that's extremely low prices, if you don't have that forget about it and find a new hobby.  

Message cf577c18CZt-3680-912+00.htm, number 94, was posted on Fri Jan 28 at 15:12:18
in reply to 98a3c5548xx-3680-380+00.htm

let's get this right!

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


On Fri Jan 28, james brown wrote
--------------------------------
>Why don't you advertise low prices, you guys buy overpriced caskets
-----wrong, while we may not pay quite as little as a funeral director
(you?) does, we are not charged an overprice as wholesalers. And we sure don't mark them up NEARLY as much!! And our buying power, this
is just the beginning of the market.....meaning, once we have more
buying power NUMBERS (like the funeral director chains) we will get more of a discount.
>then overcharge for them ($50 less than funeral home price)
----don't know where you get your figures. I'm from a show me state-
I'll match my prices against yours, put it up. web site? Bet more like
$800 to $1,000.00 to $1,500.00 less - like my customers tell me each WEEK!!

> and don't know why biz is bad?
----It is hard to live down all the rumors that our competition puts
out, and all the restricted bogas tactics, that and the other dishonest things put in the way. It would be a breeze if there were not such things placed in the way.
>You only have one thing to offer, that's extremely low prices, if you don't have that forget about it and find a new hobby.  
----this is a post from another board, I put here to show how things
are coming around.....long but good reading, between a funeral director and myself, a casket store retailer.-about typical family needing "arrangements"---------
1) If that Smith family finds that indeed, they, she
or he, is NOT going to save any money by making
the extra stop----great. AT LEAST they tried, at
least they gave it their best shot. The worst thing
for someone to do - is nothing. "I don't want his
hard earned money to be wasted" is something I hear
often. If the price is down and service is up, hey-
wave me good-bye. The public wouldn't be so "in the
middle" of a market that should not have been a war to
start with. Why the f.d. fight it so is beyond me, as free trade
almost always finds a way. Taking away people's rights is wrong.

2) If you think that the Smith family feels good
about letting someone handle everything, and they
sit home for three days, doing nothing, that is not
the same family I see. I see the ones who feel BETTER
handling something, shopping, doing a few last things-
making it more PERSONNEL (SEE link below, too
late for your "wedding" scene, already here!)

3): Funeral homes in turn raise service fees.
Granted, this is happening, and that is not my gripe.
It is however, a gripe of some about the non decline
fee. That is the "phone" fee. But let me point out
what has been said before. If that "embalming"
that they now find out they no longer need - is
raised up over $1,000.00 (where it ought to be for
all that you do) and the people have a choice, a
nice container or a viewing, and one is needed and
the other is an option, and they are the type who
(f.d. might NOT give enough credence too, not credit)
feel as Ben F. said "it is better to go to bed hungry than to
raise in the morning in debit" which do you think
they will forgo?? Who will to be the bad guy then?
It is not that they don't care, they don't buy into
the huge price tag, and they know their limits (of justice,
not spending ability in it's self)
4)My thought is really, I never should have been
accused of "main object is to make the funeral industry
look bad" that has NEVER been my thrust. It is used
to discredit me (us). They (some) have done it all by
themselves. I (we) never should have been locked out of
wholesale buys of a pc of wood or steel, to retail
it. The battle of "overnight fly byes, bad product
and other untrue arguments" haven't worked. Let's
all start fresh, Put me out of business by honest
hard work and fair prices. I'll pat you all on the
back if you do. If you can't do it honestly and with
an open market, that Smith family will still be
wondering why, and what all the hoopla is about!
1. Will the casket store still make this grieving family not only go to the funeral home but also to the
casket store to select a casket? Is this something grieving families want to do? Is this best for them
even though cost no longer plays a role?
-----Nope, they do choose - it is a choice. If they found no benefit, they "win" and so does the f.h. It

is the best thing that ever could happen, and I think most c.s. owners feel that way. That was the #1
reason to open a store, injustice of price. Our division (A Team Masters) is not our lively hood, but it
is an important part of what I now do. A commitment that we feel good about. www.burialitems.com
: 2. ANYONE may open a casket store, while it takes a licensed and regulated individual abiding by

the consumer safety standards set out by the governing state to set up a funeral establishment.
Which one is in a better position to take advantage of a family?
---While your argument may SOUND valid, how much more could someone take advantage of
anyone than the cost of what "was asked" in that first showroom?? That license or equal paperwork
thrown up, is not for the selling of goods, and we have seen in the past what abuse it has sometimes
stood for. It never stopped those "outlaws" from low life before, what makes a difference now? It is
used to bar an open trade. Period. We have seen no benefit from outlaws just due to that license.
: 3. It takes a certain commitment to a family to be available 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
Casket store operators are available on a business day. Which of the two is in it for the
self-gratification and which is in it for the bottom line. As a funeral home, our business hours read
"whenever you need us". I am not doubting your concern and commitment, just the depth of it
compared to those of us who live by the telephone.
---Wait, know this isn't the only field that has such commitment, for far more income too I might
add. We used to plow snow for the city of Timberlake, had to schedule everything around a pager,
sudden calls and leaves. For competitive biz, it was a choice (not worth it, the cold, break downs,
stuck, Christmas eve ruined, low pay seen in return, etc.)This on the other hand, is a choice too, one
that I enjoy more. So for you- it is a choice. Even after all the schooling - if you stay, it is a choice.
You knew going in what was in store. So, can't say that should be something we all get pats on the
back for. We CAN NOT say it is not all (well, mostly) about money - you need it to exist. If you
couldn't earn your
level of (needed or wanted) income, you'd leave. By choice or force ;-(
: 4. Historically, FD's were carpenters who made caskets and provided livery. Then the service
portion followed. It is the natural evolution of economy. From goods to service. When will these
casket stores "evolve" to service, and what would that service be? As you can see, you are where
we WERE. Been there, done that, and something had to be added to help us remain viable. That
something was service. We'll see you there.
----Found already, people want to pay something to someone else sometimes, just for the "second
look, of a professional shopper or consultant" to be sure that there was nothing out of place. I have
been called "something like a wedding consultant, but for funerals" And this again, is a choice or not,
and would be something that grows or dies by demand. Excuse me for saying, because I know it
gets old, but that is what it should have been all along. This restricted & media hounded field is what
has drawn attention to what is wrong with it. It should rise or fall all on it's own, without all the tricks
used - both sides!
: 5. Last thought I am having......Consolidation is everywhere nowadays. MCI, Time-Warner,
AOL, SCI, all making the news. Reduce that to the level of the funeral. The funeral home has
evolved as a provider of consolidated services and merchandise to help facilitate a family's choices
and make it easier for them to plan a meaningful funeral. Casket stores and other merchandisers
only look to spread this out and thus, make the funeral process much more drawn out and
inefficient. How long before funerals become like weddings and REQUIRE advance planning
because when the day arrives, many different elements from different sources will all have tp come
together to make the funeral. Does it make sense to make a grieving family jump through the hoops
of retailers just to save a buck when really it serves only to pressure them more?
---Your thoughts make sense -the only flaw is, lack of choice.(Not from one home to another, from
one retailer of goods, to another.)Every other field has, excuse me, ALLOWS them ;-) That is were it went wrong.
I think most people feel wronged when they are boxed in. I'm tickled to see that the open minded people
are not stifled by others enough to (NOT) voice their opinion, even if it is non traditional. Thanks and here's to ya, Best wishes for a good life.
The future of funerals?? www.detnews.com/1999/religion/9911/02/11030008.htm
------end copy

See, people should and can get along. And no one needs to be told to
forget it. We are still new and growing. And people sure like what we
do. And it is more than just saving them money, it is giving them their self confidence back. That they were right not to feel good about someone wanting to take control of everything, and get an open
checkbook to boot! Giving them a choice.


Message cf568525LmM-3682-987-00.htm, number 103, was posted on Sun Jan 30 at 16:27:40
John Doe:

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


However it happened I don't know. There is an error in that the posting button for replies is not on your last post. As you know, I posted prior to have you welcome to post if you were a registered user. As such, you can go back in and correct your post. If you do not correct the mistake, it will be deleted, and you will need to repost, so people can respond to it - if they choose. Also, you need to correct "shipping prices not included" as that is another error, as I have seen on some of the site listed, it was included in the costs you detail. And while your prices are wrong on many items too, if enough people complain that you have not choosen to correct all you mistakes, it will be removed as it would become just lies, not any study, certianly not any factual information.

The post button for reply and above needs fixed by this evening.


Message 0404a09bzVZ-3682-1038+00.htm, number 104, was posted on Sun Jan 30 at 17:18:21
in reply to cf568525LmM-3682-987-00.htm

Re: Tahnk You Mr. Webmaster

John Doe
johhny_doe@netzero.com


I was wrong about the freight, some prices may include freight, I didn't check that out, as far as I know and until proven wrong all prices are correct. One casket seller savcash pointed out that her 20 Ga. casket was less than I origionaly said and I fixed the price. Any oyjer errors please let me know.

Message 98a3ced3yhs-3682-1258-00.htm, number 105, was posted on Sun Jan 30 at 20:57:58
To the writer John Doe

Direct Casket Outlet, Inc. DBA Franchisee Name Direct Casket Outlet or just Direct Casket Outlet - stores across the U.S.
ndco@juno.com


Your price comparison names several casket stores.  You freely use just the name "Direct".  There are several casket stores across the U.S. that use the name "Direct".  Example: Direct Casket Outlet, Direct Caskets, Caskets Direct, Direct Casket Sales, Abbey Direct Casket Outlet, We Care Direct Casket Outlet, South Kansas City Direct Casket Outlet and more.  Who are you referring to?  I am president of Nelson's Direct Casket Outlet, Inc. with many franchises doing business as Direct Casket Outlet, and "Franchisee Name" Direct Casket Outlet across the U.S.  Your price comparison is not our prices.  I feel you must be more specific in your price quotes to be fair to the general public when they come to this site to learn, and fair to all stores with the name "Direct" in them.

Message cf577c4bCZt-3682-1281+00.htm, number 106, was posted on Sun Jan 30 at 21:21:24
in reply to 98a3ced3yhs-3682-1258-00.htm

Re: To the writer John Doe

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


I don't think it is his intent "to be fair" There are several errors in the listings (STILL) concerning our site also.

I agree with the webmaster, if the corrections are not made, zap the post, as it is not trueful much at all! And to beat all, no matter what he puts up, the costs sure do beat that funeral director's showroom. He could at least say who he is, what his background is, so one could put much weight to his "research" or not!


Message cdbcc7cczVZ-3682-1282+00.htm, number 107, was posted on Sun Jan 30 at 21:21:31
in reply to 98a3ced3yhs-3682-1258-00.htm

Re: To the writer John Doe

John Doe
johhny_doe@netzero.com


DIRECTCASKET.COM

I would love to inlude your prices too, what are they?


Message cdbcc7cczVZ-3682-1283+00.htm, number 108, was posted on Sun Jan 30 at 21:23:14
in reply to cf577c4bCZt-3682-1281+00.htm

Re^2: To the writer John Doe

John Doe
johhny_doe@netzero.com


Prove me wrong, I'm waiting.

Don't just say something is broke give me the symtoms


Message cf568608LmM-3683-42+00.htm, number 109, was posted on Mon Jan 31 at 00:43:06
in reply to cdbcc7cczVZ-3682-1282+00.htm

Re^2: Listen up

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


The post was removed because you didn't correct the missing buttons, because you didn't put on it, like you were asked, the correct information. It stands as one post, all
the corrected information - not several posts throughout the thread. Because you leave no information about yourself, so someone could verify. Because if you are going to do a study, you check the figures prior to your post. If someone can't respond to it because you use  a table that somehow messes up the respond buttons, it is of no value.

Message cf568428LmM-3683-710+00.htm, number 111, was edited on Tue Feb 1 at 18:07:57
Re^3: To John Doe

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


The thing is, you didn't choose to leave much about yourself, not even the John Doe name on the first post. People like to know backgrounds of a poster claiming "any survey or
facts" You were asked to provide more information & to correct the misleading information.
Nope, that wasn't done. Most people won't respond to a John Doe, and need not prove anything.  This board is part of a site that people come to for information. You offered something in the form of a fact finder. The people who support this site deserve backups to information thrown out incorrectly. The fact is, it was left up a day and you didn't correct it, so it was removed. The trashing of others without all of the above, is just that. When people sit as if they are going to Judge someone, they have to be accountable. They are the ones who listen to both sides, you didn't at all.

On Sun Jan 30, John Doe wrote
-----------------------------
>Prove me wrong, I'm waiting.

>Don't just say something is broke give me the symtoms

While it was up IT was left there to allow you a fair exchange, corrections - and you didn't bother. We offered and you messed up.  I removed it based on how unfactual, incomplete and unfair it was and your lack of time involved to correct it, or explain how your background would lead you to be any "researcher" on all of the subject.

[ This message was edited on Tue Feb 1 by the author ]


Message cdbcc1abhE0-3684-1271-00.htm, number 112, was posted on Tue Feb 1 at 21:11:17
"AARP" very positive article

Floyd Hoke
hokef@aol.com


In the March-April 2000 "AARP" OR MODERN MATURITY their is a very positive article about the funeral industry.  Very stright forward
with some quotes from Mr.Rob Karlin.

Message cf568458LmM-3685-62+00.htm, number 113, was posted on Wed Feb 2 at 01:02:56
in reply to cdbcc1abhE0-3684-1271-00.htm

Re: "AARP" very positive article

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


Hi, thanks for sharing. They don't have that issue up yet. Good to hear of it though. Here is the site and an older issue. Not all stories are able to be read on line, bummer.
www.aarp.org/bulletin/nov99/home.html
They have a very in depth look at funeral costs and many links on their site.
www.aarp.org/confacts/money/funeral.html

Message cf56845dLmM-3685-877-00.htm, number 114, was posted on Wed Feb 2 at 14:37:47
Find the one truest statement.

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


Your ability to succeed in business is directly related:

To your ability to market.

To keeping on top of technological advancements.

To be able to access the most unique products to the most well known brand names.

To keeping plenty of prospective customers by location of business.

To following a strict business plan or get  mediocre results.






Did you see it? All of the other answers do not matter as much or are incorrect. If you don't market, you can't get any traffic to your location can you? Or at least, not enough to make to worth your while.  For that matter, what good is any retail business location without traffic? Sometimes, people find you without you even lifting the phone. Like in this case,-
they listed the NCRA CA. store directory when they found it. Email to list your CA site & get their link button.
http://www.at-la.com/biz/@la-death.htm#casket
www.at-la.com/biz/@la-death.htm#casket
All on their own, and have written in to ask for a link back to their site. (below) And it puts those CA stores listed in the NCRA site AHEAD all of those others that might ever be listed on the @LA site, member benefits.  That's a good deal for the NCRA CA members, however all others can and should look to their own state and city on the internet, and list your site there.
//email //"There is no charge for this service, but we'd
appreciate it if you could
provide a reciprocal link to @LA and/or the page that
your link is on. We provide
special benefits to those who include links to our
site http://www.at-la.com/@la-info/member.htm#link."
www.at-la.com/@la-info/member.htm#link".
Also in the email: "I will be moving out of state and doing a bit of traveling over the next year. Plans to manufacture our own line of  caskets and urns have begun, and investors interested.  I must liquidate at amazingly low prices, you heard   it, amazingly low prices. From Des Moines, Iowa 26   All are 20 g, about 6 different models. I can send
 photos of some.    Delivery might be available in certain parts of the
 country, with added charge. I have too many irons in the fire, now, and my
 main goal is   manufacturing soon. Let me know if you need any inventory and if I can help, I think you'll all be   impressed with what we are doing.

By the way, what did the healthy casket
 say to the sick casket?






Is that you coughin'? Ah, a little humor, but we need to remember the first
 three letters of the word funeral some days. I can be   contacted at (snip)
//email webmaster for more information.


Message cdbcc6bcz5a-3686-320-00.htm, number 115, was posted on Thu Feb 3 at 05:19:41
funeral rul

competitive caskets inc.
jjjgjs@aol.com


any update info yet??

Message cf5685d1CZt-3686-1400+00.htm, number 116, was posted on Thu Feb 3 at 23:20:43
in reply to cdbcc6bcz5a-3686-320-00.htm

upto date info, getting paid ease too, ques. ease of delivery

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


I found a url that is really neat. It is the daily diffs - and has a huge source of information. www.dailydiffs.com/
use the search: ftc funeral rule, and it brings up the very latest,
and other sites too. Can track just about anything for your info.

Also, this program I use and can highly recommend. It beats using a
merchant account (some people don't have charge cards anyway) and there is no fees associated (like monthly, percentages, etc) and most
people are accustomed to it. The phone company uses it to get paid alot! www.nelpub.com/c-man/20649/   It is a breeze and my local bank has NEVER given me any headache over the deposit of a computer generated ~ out of town draft check, (large amount check), at any time. And the funds are available 2-3 days, just like a visa deposit would be. Email me if any questions, I'll walk you through it.

Question:: Another c.s. owner & I were talking about how funeral directors are coping with accepting caskets, and what might make a
dif/or not. He said he thinks his biggest notice is if the f.h. is an
independ/ or if it is owned by one of the BIG firms. Do you agree?
His reasoning was that the large corp. owned employed funeral directors don't care about the lost casket sale and even go out of their way to help that family save money. "Because they feel so bad about the high prices that the family is being charged. They understand that they need to save money however they can."   I think that might be partly right, however what
might make a huge dif/too is if that funeral director/read salesman worked on comission sales or not. Anyone??


Message cf568508LmM-3687-837+00.htm, number 117, was posted on Fri Feb 4 at 13:58:23
in reply to cf5685d1CZt-3686-1400+00.htm

tortious , Tortious Interference with a contract

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


Would be the proper name if any business tried to prevent your sale from happening. (Like refusal of a delivery) Then both companies stand to loose money (court costs etc) get into the headlines, and spend hours of time where it is not generating more income. Details, documentation, hearings, with customer testimonials, attorney fees & meetings and  so forth. Very costly for both sides. That might be one of the biggest reasons. To remain law abiding and grow - not hinder and  to face all of the above plus negative feedback for the funeral home that started it all. Furthermore, if they do disparage your business, slander also falls in place. If the customer will give depositions, and you have more than one instance at a particular funeral home, or corporations of multiple funeral homes, antitrust is possible. But without involving all of that, most business' will "make sure the casket makes it to internment, and treat the family with respect regarding the matter."

Message cf568508LmM-3687-847+00.htm, number 118, was posted on Fri Feb 4 at 14:08:06
in reply to cf5685d1CZt-3686-1400+00.htm

Tortious Interference with a contract

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


Would be the proper name if any business tried to prevent your sale from happening. (Like refusal of a delivery) Then both companies stand to loose money (court costs etc) get into the headlines, and spend hours of time where it is not generating more income. Details, documentation, hearings, with customer testimonials, attorney fees & meetings and  so forth. Very costly for both sides. That might be one of the biggest reasons. To remain law abiding and grow - not hinder and  to face all of the above plus negative feedback for the funeral home that started it all. Furthermore, if they do disparage your business, slander also falls in place. And/ or make false statements about the quality of the casket. If you sense any type of animosity towards your delivery, make notes. If the customer will give depositions, and you have more than one instance at a particular funeral home, or corporations of multiple funeral homes, antitrust is possible. You would need to seek legal advice.
But without involving all of that, MOST ALL business' will "make sure the casket makes it to internment, and treat the family with respect regarding the matter."  

Message cf568626CZt-3691-1096-00.htm, number 119, was posted on Tue Feb 8 at 18:18:12
time management & big rocks

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


Time Management and Big Rocks

              This story was forwarded to me yesterday. The message is not unique, but we need to be
reminded about the importance of priorities now and again.

Enjoy, and get your rocks together,

Jim Stephens
**************************************************

Quiz

One day, an expert in time management was speaking to a group of business students, and
to drive home a point he used an Illustration those students will never forget. As he stood in
front of the group of high powered over-achievers he said, "Okay, time for a quiz."

He pulled out a one gallon, wide mouthed Mason jar and set it on the table in front of him.
Then he produced about a dozen fist sized rocks and carefully placed them, one at a time,
into the jar. When the jar was filled to the top and no more rocks would fit inside, he asked, "Is
the jar full?"

Everyone in the class said, "Yes."

Then he said, "Really?"

He reached under the table and pulled out a bucket of gravel. He dumped some gravel in and
shook the jar, causing pieces of gravel to work themselves down into the space between the
big rocks.

He asked the group once more, "Is the jar full?"

By this time the class was on to him.

"Probably not," one of them answered.

"Good!" he replied.

He reached under the table and brought out a bucket of sand and bagan dumping it in the jar.
It went into all the spaces left between the rocks and the gravel.

Once more he asked the question, "Is the jar full?" "No!" the class shouted.

Once again he said, "Good!"

He then grabbed a pitcher of water and began to pour it in until the jar was filled to the brim.

He looked at the class and asked, "What is the point of this illustration?"

One eager student raised his hand and said, "The point is, no matter how full your schedule
is, if you try really hard you can always fit some more things in!"

"No," the speaker replied, "That's not the point. The truth this illustration teaches us is that if
you don't put the big rocks in first, you'll never get them in at all.

What are the 'BIG ROCKS' in your life? Your children…Your loved ones.... Your education....
Your Dreams ...A worthy cause.... Teaching or mentoring others.... Doing things that you
love.... Time for yourself.... Your health.... Your significant other.

Remember to put these BIG ROCKS in first or you'll never get them in at all. If you sweat the
little stuff (the gravel, the sand) then you'll fill your life with little things to worry about that don't
really matter, and you'll never have the real quality time you need to spend on the big,
important stuff (the big rocks).

So, tonight or in the morning when you are reflecting on this short story, ask yourself this
question:

What are the 'big rocks' in my life? Then, put them in your jar first.
----end copy--
I have learned a long time ago, not to sweat the small stuff. My
motto is if if doesn't involve blood, smoke or life - it is probably
not something that will matter a year from now anyway. Small stuff.
And too, the pumping of the well water handle is really hard and takes sometimes forever to get that water running. But, once up there, the water is sure a lot eaiser to keep going smoother, than start & stop, start again. We almost broke our record sales  (# of units) in a month for the month of Jan. It is sure due to the time / yrs we have spent in business. We are still small compared to some of the stores, really small comparing some of the members in this NCRA. Glad to be part!
Anybody else almost break or did break the number of units sold for the month? I see that many new outlets and stores are opening - even one more in my area. But it is owned and run by funeral directors.
Ain't free trade just great!


Message d1770beaLmM-3692-622+00.htm, number 120, was posted on Wed Feb 9 at 10:22:52
in reply to cf56845dLmM-3685-877-00.htm

Know your market,

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


I "clipped" this from another discussion ///
Subject: The Potholder and the Rebuttal

In response to the post on the potholder (John McCabe LED 761) and
the rebuttal of using one (Bob Sharp, 764), for the funeral home...
you are both right and wrong!

First, my disclaimer. Ex-funeral director. Now, the reasons (for
being right and wrong, not why I was a funeral director!). First,
use of give-aways are a very good idea and very beneficial. (Bob 1,
John 0). Unless you are a funeral home (Bob 1, John 1).

The funeral industry has been, is, and forever will be ­
segregated. Period. There are no exceptions. For as much as our
world is becoming (thank goodness) integrated and more culturally
diverse, the funeral business simply will not. No matter how many
potholders you do or do not give away. Rather than discussing
whether this is right or wrong ­ I will stick to the subject at
hand. Why it is.

Where does one go when they typically need the services from a
funeral home (besides to a funeral home!)? To the one down the
street, you know, the one where you buried gramps, grannie, mom or
dad. Funeral homes depend on two things: supply and demand (they
have the upper hand here ­ we are all going to need one regardless
of our burial choices or culture) and repeat business. Before you
yell “stupid, how can you become a repeat customer at a funeral
home”, hear me out.

In the funeral industry you have local funeral homes, mostly now
owned by conglomerates (there are only four big players involved in
the US and the number two guy (Lowen) has filed for either chapter
7 or 11) catering to the needs of their local demographics. They
are your local white catholic, white protestant, African American
catholic, African American protestant, Asian, Middle East, etc. For
instance, if you have ever attended a service or visitation at your
local funeral home ­ did all the employees look just like you (if
you were part of the family). I bet they did. If you (unfortunately
but unmistakably a real possibility) ever needed to make
arrangements for a loved one, did you choose the one down the
street or in the family neighborhood (substitute county, area,
etc.) that coincided with your family religion (for instance, I am
catholic, white and Scottish ­ and our family has been using
Murphy’s since my first trip to one to see Grandma off 25 years
ago) or culture? I am sure you did.

I once worked at a funeral home where the owner pulled me aside and
said, “what do you think about hiring an African American funeral
director?” I said, well why not. If he or she is qualified, why
would you even have to ask. He then looked at me and said, look
around. Do you see any integration in any funeral home? How would
YOU feel if you came to make arrangements and someone who looked
different from you or wearing a religious clothing article from
another religion other than yours greeted you at the door? Would
you be comfortable? Would you think that person capable of
understanding your culture, your religion and handling this very
important and emotional period in your life? Or, would you expect
that person to look, think, and worship the same as you?

Typically, whenever I participate in the exercise of visiting a
funeral home, either for reasons within my own family or outside,
such as friends, co-workers, etc. I just can not help but notice
the exactness between the funeral home’s staff and religious
specialty and the family’s. Every time.

Finally, the big guys buying up all the traditional local funeral
homes all across American and Canada have several things in common
but the most significant business trait is in the takeover name of
the funeral home. They DO NOT CHANGE THE NAME! They have recognized
that the name is a constant billboard to future clients. The last
time you may have needed the services from a funeral home could
have been when your grandparents passed on, and the next time
(traditionally) would be for our parents. Where will we go? Take a
guess. And it won’t be because we did or did not get a potholder or
any other marketing paraphernalia.

So to end this, the potholder give-away is a good idea and Bob is
right. But, John is also correct in saying it is not a good
advertising method for a funeral home ­ but for the wrong reasons.
It has nothing to do with what he mentioned and everything to do
with us. Always will.

Well, this is a huge swing from our traditional subjects ­ and
maybe a relief from those for some! When advertising or marketing
for a business there is that one golden rule that simply does not
go away and is applicable to every business. KNOW YOUR BUSINESS.
Change is very good, most times. Is it a good idea here? I don’t
know. But you do.

Thanks,
__________________________
Can anyone contribute an idea on something that they might be doing, or giveaways that they feel works for their casket store?


Message d1770beaLmM-3692-643+00.htm, number 121, was posted on Wed Feb 9 at 10:45:02
in reply to d1770beaLmM-3692-622+00.htm

Response= Ad specialities

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


This is the response from the "clipped" post prior:
Subject: Re: Content Models for Knowledge Services

In issue #764, Bob took me to task for my comments on
advertising specialties. Bob, we're really not that far apart. I
agree that properly selected ad specialties can be a powerful part
of the marketing mix. The key is "properly selected."

In my pot holder example, perhaps the best clarification would be
to simply reproduce part of the article, with Adam's permission.

--------------

Let me give you an example. The last time I moved, I received a
"Welcome Wagon" type package. One of the items was a pot holder
with the name, address and phone number of a local funeral home.
Nice pot holder, but it sure didn't spark any discussions of
funeral arrangements every time we made a meal. To top it off, with
use the message became worn and stained and finally unreadable.
Hardly an image for a serious business like funerals.

How could this local business use information to help their cause?
Most families have a "just-in-case" box. Whether it's a safe
deposit box, a home safe or just a shoe box, this is where they
collect all the important papers only needed "just in case
something happens". If you ran the funeral home mentioned earlier,
wouldn't you want something in that box?

Maybe a "What To Do When Tragedy Strikes" booklet listing the tasks
that must be done and when. With a place to record final
instructions and last wishes. With the funeral home's name, address
and phone number under the message "If you need help with the
funeral arrangements, please call". On the cover, of course. A
booklet like this will be in the hands of those needing the service
-- when they need it!

Can you really picture the grieving family asking each other "Now
where's that old pot holder with the funeral home's name on it?"

-----------------

So I'm not against ad specialties. A mouse pad from my computer
shop reminds me to call them when I need them, and the number is
handy. The magnet on my furnace with the repair shop's number
pretty much insures they will do the repairs and seasonal
maintenance. These work because I've had good success dealing with
those businesses.

On the other hand, car dealers tend to give out key rings with new
cars. This can be a two-edged sword. If the deal is pleasant (or as
pleasant as car deals can be) and the car runs well, the ring will
remind me where to go first. If the deal is unpleasant, or the car
turns out to be a lemon, I'll be reminded where I got the junker
every time I turn the key. Guess where I won't go.

I hope this clarifies somewhat what I was trying to say.
________________________________
But it has also been proven that most all people carry at least one item on their body or purse, suitcase, that carries a company's name on it. Like a pen, business card or whatever. More than 1/2 of those, carry at least THREE items with a co. name. Question is then, is your company name getting out? What do you use? We all know that an ad with a photo of a casket is supposed to be the best - what about giveaways?


Message cdbcc036z5a-3693-342-00.htm, number 122, was posted on Thu Feb 10 at 05:42:27
GIVE AWAYS

competitive caskets inc.
jjjgjs@aol.com


WE GIVE TO THE FAMILY A MEMORIAL PACKAGE FREE: CROSS OR CRUFIX,TEMP. GRAVE MARKER,50 THANK YOU CARDS,ROSARY,AND REG. BOOK :THIS OUR WAY OF SAYING THANK YOU FOR USING OUR SERVICES.....GEORGE

Message cf577c83CZt-3693-1115+00.htm, number 123, was posted on Thu Feb 10 at 18:35:35
in reply to cdbcc036z5a-3693-342-00.htm

Re: GIVE AWAYS

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


Very generous George! My give a ways after the sale vary. But prior to the sale for marketing, I have seen what a local funeral home has done at our church (humph, they're not even members) So I think this is great for people who are members - a fan (with their name on it) I would have of course, ours but also a verse. Church is hot in the summer and they are sturdy enough that they are reused often. And my other thing I have is a ribbon, that is a bookmark - for Bibles or for what ever. ( I like it that our name is something not always associated with a casket, so some ribbons have just A Team Masters etc. and the footprint saying, good to attach to flowers sent to the funeral. )Guess a few of you have seen our stock car, this marketing tool shows crowds of people all at once. Had it professionaly lettered this year, entered it in the Clev. auto show, and it took first place in it's division. (I'll put up photo later)

I copied the url for the NCRA poll www.insta-poll.com/cgi-bin/insta-poll.cgi?zone=47&id=110157&action=view   if you want to check it out fast, it is coming right along.
The results are sure in tune with what I see/hear. If you missed it, check out the home page of this site to vote.

And can you believe that this site for kids www.cryptnet.com/navigator/defaultnav.asp is listed in the top 100 (at #69)on the top 100 kids site? www.100hot.com/directory/lifestyles/kids.html   scary.....


Message cdbcc0a3yCv-3694-392+00.htm, number 124, was posted on Fri Feb 11 at 06:31:53
in reply to cdbcc036z5a-3693-342-00.htm

Re: GIVE AWAYS

store-eliminator
abc@123.net


I give away a free casket every time a person mentions a casket store!

Message cf568511LmM-3694-516+00.htm, number 125, was posted on Fri Feb 11 at 08:36:56
in reply to cdbcc0a3yCv-3694-392+00.htm

Re^2: Give Aways, except for the whole truth

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


On Fri Feb 11, store-eliminator wrote
-------------------------------------
>I give away a free casket every time a person mentions a casket store!

Grin, like the funeral director that gave pot holders in the ad specialites post below,
time shows that the people think it stinks, and are not so dumb as to understand why.

1966 link shows that the funeral industry used gulit as 1 of their tools to sell. Now enter the web, and smooth designers that tout Batesville as "addressing their customers directly." But, what they don't tell people on the site, they use tatics like yours to eliminate the compitation too.( But not free, just not available to salespeople other than the funeral directors, making it only available with as a high priced item) If the customers only knew enough to ask the right questions.  www.demographics.com/publications/mt/96_mt/9610_mt/9610M34A.HTM

Wilbert vaults operates the same way (as do a few others) "helping you sell the whole service" when talking (only) to their funeral director salespeople. www.wilbertvault.com/information/marketing_and_sales_support.html

In an effort to curb that, and as a  defense, some casket stores are now putting statements like:
"Due to pressure from their local Funeral Directors, several local Wilbert Dealers have
decided not to support the many organizations that (casket store name ) represents. Therefore, Wilbert Brand Vaults are not available in all areas. Please rest assured that a comparable product will be delivered instead of the Wilbert Product in those areas."

It should have trademarks for the product on it perhaps, but do you really think that message is sending out a good, positive image of morticians - to the public?  But what is one to do? Not say the truth? No, if that were the case, attitudes like yours would drive all the competition away. It won't happen, the public likes us "retailers" and are becoming more informed every day, while they save money!


Message 98a3ccb6z5a-3695-358+00.htm, number 126, was posted on Sat Feb 12 at 05:58:26
in reply to cdbcc0a3yCv-3694-392+00.htm

Re^2: GIVE AWAYS

competitive caskets inc.
jjjgjs@aol.com


On Fri Feb 11, store-eliminator wrote
-------------------------------------
>I give away a free casket every time a person mentions a casket store!       WHERE ARE YOU? TOWN-STATE -PHONE NUMBER? I WILL SEND U BUSINESS! COMPETITIVE CASKETS:GEORGE

Message cf568413LmM-3695-784-00.htm, number 128, was posted on Sat Feb 12 at 13:04:28
The truth about casket stores

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


These are the elements of the conspiracy that have been dribbling out over the last few years:
First "The casket stores are fly by nights, they won't last long."
(Just like in any business, there will and always be, some that fail to make it in business. Because this was a new field, closing in on a market that was / is protected, this is what follows) But, give credit, The casket stores are here to stay!

 "The competition, collaborationists whose motivation was/ is so simple, self-directed survival."

Second " The caskets aren't good"
( This was to create plausible denial and a try at an effective cover-up of 'ANYPurity Control.' This lie spread for awhile, until it too, was found untrue and didn't work.)Not true at all! Most any casket store can get and/ or have the same brands that are sold in funeral homes. Or looking at the casket and paperwork, one can tell the product is just fine.

Third:  "They aren't regulated."

(The competition principles began to wee a  wresting of control, a loss of their accumulating power and influence across this once uncrossable border. The sale of burial product.  When in fact, most ALL casket stores are aware of the rules of doing business, and make sure to follow them. I say most, because there maybe bad business people in all fields.) It is just no other field has ever had to cross the objections put in their way - by the competion using such force to keep them out of the free trade market. ALL operations are accountable, no matter what field.

Forth/ Now: "There is no savings"
(This again, is mis-information - we have a good past history now, so other ways are being looked at to see what is  constituted as our greatest vulnerability. If this tactic is used, the best way to overcome it would of course be, exposure. The price list of your neighborhood funeral home caskets and then the casket stores. That will settle this rumor also, along with perhaps some customer statements.)Until if ever the day comes, where the funeral home can match or beat the casket store price, this is just another tactic.

Next: More disinformation, using force in numbers for more of a smokescreen. covert
(The information needs monitored - denounced so completely as to make belief in believers seem ridiculous and completely discreditable.)
Until The Big Three casket companies and those others that refuse to sell DIRECT to casket retailers,&* there is not fairness in this trade. The trip has been interesting, but it is not over. vbimail.champlain.edu/famsa/ctcasket.htm  And clearly the public has been a winner in all of this. Better prices and less of an increase that could have been, if we were not in the picture!
The casket store is the best place to purchase the funeral product, is the whole truth and nothing but the truth!

*The industry org. like NFDA & others stop offering advice like this www.biomed.lib.umn.edu/hw/guide.html  where they suggest a discount package -what
we call a s"sham discount" (If you use this funeral home, beware!! "Non decline fee approx. $800 to $1,200.00 more than the surrounding funeral homes, "unless, if you buy the funeral merchandise at our facility, then we offer you a discount" - bringing it back down
to what it would have been, prior to the introduction of the casket outlets, so that they are assured of bringing in the same amount of dollars, no matter where you shop!
Walk away from that business, and check it out. There will still be savings of a hundred to several hundred dollars, if you did fall for that "Sham discount"

Funeral homes are getting better about the casket store and the smart shopper. Morticians are learning that the industry is changing. Most are above "tactics" but be informed, that is the best thing that you can do.


Message d8636259Ccs-3695-829+00.htm, number 129, was edited on Sat Feb 12 at 13:51:24
and replaces message d8636259Ccs-3695-829-00.htm

Good Supply

Bob Hicks
rhicks@webgate.net


Are you having trouble with supply of caskets maybe I can help I have access to a full line of wood which are excellent in quality. I am retailer with a good supplier which you could tap into.

[ This message was edited on Sat Feb 12 by the author ]


Message cf5685a8CZt-3696-692+00.htm, number 130, was posted on Sun Feb 13 at 11:33:08
in reply to cf568413LmM-3695-784-00.htm

Casket stores unfairly criticized

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


In a news pc found (Canada) this is the facts in USA too----copy----
 Casket stores unfairly criticized

 The Oct. 18 letter from funeral director Michael Simpson (Casket stores should be regulated) serves only to muddy the water
 for consumers trying to understand and evaluate the new type of
 retail environment that now exists in the funeral business in Ontario.

 Simpson's statement that ``Casket stores have led the public to believe that their caskets cost less'' conveys the impression
 that casket stores have misled the public in this regard. This is
 simply not the case.

 In the large majority of cases, products offered by Ontario casket
 stores sell well below the published prices of local funeral homes
 - savings are commonly in the range of 20 per cent to 40 per cent.
 Though caskets may not be identical, due to a  difference in suppliers,  the discounts typically hold true for products of
 equivalent quality,  materials and workmanship.

 The best way for consumers to be sure they are getting  the best value  for their money is to comparison shop and judge for
 themselves.

 As for Simpson's suggestion that the Funeral Act be  amended to include  casket stores, I confess to finding it puzzling. In
 essence, the act  decrees that you must be a licensed funeral director  to provide embalming, and to take trust funds; casket stores do neither of  these things.

 As for his suggestion about the need for ``more complete consumer
 protection,'' I resent the implication that we conduct our business
 in any way that should be of special concern to consumers. We are
 legitimate business people and have the greatest respect for our customers;  and, of course, our businesses are subject to the same
 scrutiny and laws that protect all Ontario consumers.

 Casket stores have fought a difficult battle to establish their rightful place in the Ontario funeral business. We've been
 subjected to various  forms of innuendo, our suppliers live in fear of being boycotted, and potential customers have been discouraged unfairly from dealing with us.

 We want nothing more than a harmonious relationship  with our competitors and a level playing field.

 It's time for all of Ontario's funeral directors to  accept us as legitimate  business competitors.

 Alex Carey  President The Casket Store Inc.

 Oakville
-----end copy---And another link to a pc in Canada, about cremation
--copy--- FORBIDDEN CITY

                        An occasional series that looks behind
                         doors normally closed to the public

                 Where ashes to ashes is a career
www.thestar.com/back_issues/ED20000205/toronto/20000205NEW04_CI-FORBID5.html
------------------
And, if you are an NCRA member, you should have recieved an email concerning "funeral flowers" If you did not, please email me at
a-team@stratos.net asap, as some members are not on-line yet :-(


Message cf56862eCZt-3700-1044-00.htm, number 131, was posted on Thu Feb 17 at 17:25:10
Rites of Passage

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


Thought I'd share this here, copy from an email received today:-----

Rites of Passage

   Some of the most poignant moments I spend as a veterinarian are those spent with my
   clients assisting the transition of my animal patients from this world to the next. When
   living becomes a burden, whether from pain or loss of normal functions, I can help a
   family by ensuring that their beloved pet has an easy passing. Making this final decision is
   painful, and I have often felt powerless to comfort the grieving owners.

   That was before I met Shane.

   I had been called to examine a ten-year-old blue heeler named Belker who had
   developed a serious health problem. The dog’s owners - Ron, his wife, Lisa, and their
   little boy, Shane - were all very attached to Belker and they were hoping for a miracle. I
   examined Belker and found he was dying of cancer.

   I told the family there were no miracles left for Belker, and offered to perform the
   euthanasia procedure for the old dog in their home. As we made arrangements, Ron and
   Lisa told me they thought it would be good for the four-year-old Shane to observe the
   procedure. They felt Shane could learn something from the experience.

   The next day, I felt the familiar catch in my throat as Belker’s family surrounded him.
   Shane seemed so calm, petting the old dog for the last time, that I wondered if he
   understood what was going on.

   Within a few minutes, Belker slipped peacefully away. The little boy seemed to accept
   Belker’s transition without any difficulty or confusion. We sat together for a while after
   Belker’s death, wondering aloud about the sad fact that animal lives are shorter than
   human lives.

   Shane, who had been listening quietly, piped up, "I know why."

   Startled, we all turned to him. What came out of his mouth next stunned me - I’d never
   heard a more comforting explanation.

   He said, "Everybody is born so that they can learn how to live a good life - like loving
   everybody and being nice, right?" The four-year-old continued, "Well, animals already
   know how to do that, so they don’t have to stay as long."

                         By Robin Downing, D.V.M.
                   from Chicken Soup for the Pet Lover’s Soul
   Copyright 1998 by Jack Canfield, Mark Victor Hansen, Marty Becker and Carol Kline

                                       Chicken Soup for the Soul: Home Delivery is a
                                       free inspirational e-mail service from Mark
                                       Victor Hansen and Jack Canfield,
                                       co-authors of the New York Times best-selling
                                       Chicken Soup for the Soul series. Visit their
                                       site and order books or other "Soup" items. email cs-html-weekday@Scoop.SoupServer.com
www.chickensoup.com


Message cf5684d5LmM-3703-37-00.htm, number 132, was posted on Sun Feb 20 at 00:39:08
"As an industry, we haven't done a very good job

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


of explaining our pricing," says a public relations director for the National Funeral Directors Association, a trade group based near Milwaukee.

///And the reason given for that? //// "We're not retailers; we're professionals."
And they also like to say: ///   "In life," you still get pretty much what you pay for."
And another one:/// "It's not about the money, we want to help the family all that we can." ///

Of those four statements, there is only one single true one, and it's the first one.
If they were not retailers, they would not fight so hard to keep the sale. Nor would they have a vendor's license. If they believed what they said about getting what you pay for, why is there even a need to say it? Talking down to people is unprofessional. And, the casket store owner is wanting to help the family all they can too. There is no license in that.

True example, in the mail bag today. Family is going to purchase from the casket store for $1,300.00 a steel casket, $460.00 a concrete grave liner. The funeral home had already detailed their costs for the same - at $3,200.00 and $895.00. When the family goes back in to confirm arrangements, the funeral director, finding out the two items are not part of his "package" anylonger - meets the casket store price and lowers it by $100.00 on the casket, and sells the grave liner, now, for $460.00!! Not only is that unprofessional - to tear at the family like that, but it shows how much of a retailer he is. Was he a better salesman than the casket store owner? No, the c.s. owner could have "beat" his price too, but it would be tearing at the family - who just lost a mother, more. For MONEY gain (like the funeral director did, and who's not in it for the money??) So, the casket store owner SAVED the family a lot of money, but gained none, and the funeral director lost a little. But, next time, that casket store owner might feel "pushy" is better than not getting the sale. Of course that is WRONG - pre planning and talking with the family, educating them what might happen, and planning ahead how to meet that head on, that might have prevented to lost sale, but damaged a funeral director's reputation, because not all funeral directors want to put the family through so much to save or retain the sale.  This casket store owner wrote that next time (and there WILL be a next time, of a f.d. meeting the price, until they learn it ruins their repeat business) that they too, will discount the product, just to show that f.d. that it is not going to be put out of business by "games." The family will really benefit with the lowest cost and less hassle of being "torn" at. They contacted the casket store owner because they wanted to do business with them. If the funeral director had given their best price to start with, there might not have been a need.

 The FTC rule meant that for the first time consumers could meaningfully compare prices.
When the funeral director acts like a used car salesman, it brings down the whole industry! And it is not following the intent of the FTC funeral rule. But worse of all, that family will probably not use that funeral home again. They won the battle then, but are losing the war, and a lot of respect along the way.

In life, you pretty much get taken for a ride, by any Tom, Dick and Mary that thinks you can "trust" whatever is told to you. Re-evaluate the facts, look for lies and pick out a funeral director that does not stoop to the "used car sales" approach of keeping you there until you give in. There's a better one around the corner - stick to your guns and remember why you called that casket store in the first place. If the competition is eliminated like this, where will you turn to then?  The Federal Trade Commission enacted a rule requiring mortuaries to disclose charges for goods such as caskets and all their services. Tell them they listed it at such, and that is what you expect to pay (if you shopped there, and you are not )and quit playing games.


Message 98a3cd51C1i-3703-560+00.htm, number 133, was posted on Sun Feb 20 at 09:20:20
in reply to cf5684d5LmM-3703-37-00.htm

Re: Welcome to the real world!

FuneralDirector
fd@zieknet.net


If I see a low price at kmart and go to walmart and mention the low price they will beat the price. What makes you guy's think a casket price list is carved in stone? Most funeral directors list a high quality selection on the CPL but have a lesser quality (casket store like) available on a special order basis.

You think the consumer is mad that he went into the funeral home and got a discount by mentioning you? You think they will tell everyone not to use the funeral home? WRONG! They will tell everyone they know to go to the funeral home and mention you and save big bucks!  

P.S. thanks for your charity work I hope you can hang in there!


Message cf568524CZt-3703-729+00.htm, number 134, was posted on Sun Feb 20 at 12:13:54
in reply to 98a3cd51C1i-3703-560+00.htm

Re^2: Welcome to the real world!

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


If I go to kmart to buy a coffee table, and see it at walmart, it is MY CHOICE to buy it at the store I want.
If I choose to go to this fine funeral home to bury my Mom, it is not with the intent to be part of a horse trading scene. So, no, I would
NEVER reuse a funeral home that added to my stress and confusion at a time like this. And to say you list one thing and offer another (casket store quality, that's so full of it that it reaks)is something that the FTC would love to hear.
The real world funeral director would not - should not and probably CAN NOT "haggle" the prices at a time like this. Turn him/her (it)
into the FTC, BBB & the association at www.fea.org/

    Funeral Ethics Association
    Robert W. Ninker, Executive Director
    215 S. Grand Avenue West
    Springfield, IL  62704
    (217) 525-1520
    fax (217) 525-8342
    fea@aol.com
Yes, I know who it is, but it might just work if enough people write in or call. What a pity that you think it is charity work, and that you will win them back, or that you see nohing wrong in this situation. Sharpen up your sales skills there fd, I would have told the family "I thought you came to this fine establishment to bury your Mom, not be part of some horse trading or used car sales techiniques.
I won't be part of it, so I will give you the grave liner for free, seeing as how you have had to go thru this at this time - when you purchase that casket from me. That is why you called me, to save money and bypass huge funeral director prices. If you allow him to get away with his game here, he will try it all the more, trying to put casket stores out of business. It is a shame they can't play fair like all the other trades. Our product is every bit as fine as theirs, just at a huge discounted price. So, free it will be, just because you deserve to do business with first class people and not be torn apart further by underhanded sales tactics, being used at this now, not so fine f.h."
But, I would also have prepared that family prior to their trip to that low class funeral home, if they had a reputation for being underhanded like this. And that f.d. would not have had the chance to tear at them in the 1st place. They'd have used (blank) down the street after I tell them about a horror story like that. So how do you figure you win? And look at how much it cost you, over a period of time, far more than what you would've earned on that casket & vault sale. Yep, welcome to the real world, where it is all going to hang out, like it or not. Just please don't put that family in more stress.
If you believe in charity, give it too. But in the mean time, everyone will be calling all of the above org. to help you tow the line.


Message cdbcc09dC1i-3703-790+00.htm, number 135, was posted on Sun Feb 20 at 13:10:15
in reply to cf568524CZt-3703-729+00.htm

Re^3: The meet or beat any price policy!

FuneralDirector
fd@zieknet.net


You low life casket hawkers want us to publish our prices for you and then you think it's unfair if we haggle a little, or have a meet or beat any price deal.  In the real world we call it competition.  Casket stores wake up and realize no one is going to GIVE you a sale. And please do call Robert Ninker at FEA, he is one of the most outspoken anti-casket store people in the industry.

P.S. If I sell a casket at cost to BEAT you, I still get the service money and if you loose the casket sale you get?


Message cf568524CZt-3703-845+00.htm, number 136, was posted on Sun Feb 20 at 14:07:33
in reply to cdbcc09dC1i-3703-790+00.htm

Re^4: The meet or beat any price policy!

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


No contest.  That is all fine for pre need sales. If you want to haggle then, to use your best shot, but when the family is there to see you about burying their Mom,(Dad, whoever) that is not the time to do this. There should be no contest, the funeral director should have listened when the family said they were getting the goods elsewhere.
And I don't count over ONE THOUSAND dollars lowered price, to meet or beat the c.s. price, a little. I don't think I have EVER expected anyone to GIVE me a sale, but it sure would be nice if the competition
was as trusting and respectable as they have built themselves up to be. To snatch it right out from under my feet, to create a situation that they might feel more comfortable in (tearing at the family's little sense they have left in a situation like that) of tense and regretable "bartering." At need it never never should happen. And-
If I were to spend six thousand dollars at the local dealers, and then found out from a neighbor that I could have gotten a thousand dollars off by "using" ploys at the time of the purchase, I'd be more than a little hot at the dealer. I expected him to give me his best price, just because. At any rate,  the dealer may have gained my biz then, but that old tell a friend, tell a woman and tell it to all - sure just cost him more than he made by not making me jump thru hoops to get his best price. He lost thousands of future deals with his low life sales tactics.

>And please do call Robert Ninker at FEA, he is one of the most outspoken anti-casket store people in the industry.
LIke I said, I know who he is, but if he has a heart and there are enough people that call, write and give him an ear full, maybe he might just come around. Guess the people would be smart to COPY it to the ATTY GENERAL'S OFFICE, then maybe it wouldn't be ignored in numbers. So, FTC, BBB, FEA and ATTY GEN. for best results ;->

>P.S. If I sell a casket at cost to BEAT you, I still get the service money and if you loose the casket sale you get?
Piece of mind that the family didn't get ripped off, and in a letter to them at a later date, a discounted coupon from me, along with a note, telling them I am so sorry that they choose to do biz with some firm that used that period of time to make a point. The coupon will be a sizeable amount, off of a future need, as a thank you for the 1st call and letting them know I understand their grief and fustration of trying to find the best results in a time like that. Sure, I might not have gotten a sale then, but I don't think that the funeral director could EVER undo the damage he caused due to his CONTEST. They will call me next time. And bet they don't make the mistake of using the same funeral director who showed so little regard for their plight.

You watching Daytona 500 today? Those NASCAR drivers all want to win, and the people watch just to see the best wrecks. But no one wishes anyone any real harm. Just compete fairly while the race is on.IT IS At intermission they deal and swap - at downtime. No one needs to get burned at need, if you want to BEAT me, do it when the public is not
getting hurt. I'd like a fair race, watching it if it is fixed isn't fun, it's criminal.


Message cdbcc015C1i-3703-1015+00.htm, number 138, was posted on Sun Feb 20 at 16:55:28
in reply to cf568524CZt-3703-851+00.htm

Re^5: The meet or beat any price policy!

FuneralDirector
fd@zieknet.net


When they mention a casket outlet I simply smile and bring out the "price point line" you start calling me a crook I wonder who they will believe a casket fly-by working out of the go-cart shop or an established funeral director.  I usually get the body before you will speak your piece and people don't like it when salesmaen go negative.  The FTC designed the funeral rule to promote competition and bring prices down.  When two kitty corner gas stations have a price war on gas the consumer wins even if one gas station goes belly up in the war!

Message 98a3c3b3EYS-3703-1165-00.htm, number 139, was posted on Sun Feb 20 at 19:24:58
Doamin name eCaskets.com for sale to highest bidder!

Craig Brown
craigb@nxs.net


Please go to www.GreatDomains.com and do a search on eCaskets.com.  Thank you for your interest.

Message 98a3c3b3EYS-3703-1170+00.htm, number 140, was posted on Sun Feb 20 at 19:29:36
in reply to 98a3c3b3EYS-3703-1165-00.htm

Oops... that's "DOMAIN" name.

Craig Brown
craigb@nxs.net


.

Message cf577c89CZt-3703-1347+00.htm, number 141, was posted on Sun Feb 20 at 22:28:25
in reply to cdbcc015C1i-3703-1015+00.htm

Re^6: The meet or beat any price policy!

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


On Sun Feb 20, FuneralDirector wrote
------------------------------------
>When they mention a casket outlet I simply smile and bring out the "price point line" you start calling me a crook
---Didn't say a crook, said a pushy salesman in the worst time possible, when someone is grief stricken.
And this is the "price point line?" (Or is is something that the NFDA gives out on how to "deal" with third party c.s. owners?
www.pricepointcars.com/oneprice.html  this site sure fits.....
but wrong about who has to "haggle"
>>I wonder who they will believe a casket fly-by
--Not - don't even go there.
>>working out of the go-cart shop
---Not, my son (over an hr away) owns the go cart shop, it is quite nice really - and he is good at it too.
We own a 16 yr old established (and forceful player in this area) construction firm, along with 39 ac. the building and our equip. The casket store is a division of this parent firm.
> or an established funeral director.
---Not IF they smell something fishy! And they can't tell anymore with this line of reasoning - the field is turning a shade of gray. Who wants to be put in a dog fight - pushed into one - when they don't need to be?
> I usually get the body before you will speak your piece and people don't like it when salesmen go negative.  
---True, this "beating me at the price game, by them lowering to meet my price" has actually only happened to me three times now in two yrs.
Twice on the internet, and once local. I didn't go away empty handed here in Clev. tho, the family paid me for my professional shopping services (3 hrs with them, $300. check in hand)when I went with them to the cemetery and the funeral home. (Boy, did that funeral director
ever sweat.....poor guy, you should have seen him.)Even he said I saved them (his "family")a lot of money. I let him win, because it was due to a death and I wasn't going to haggle to cause the family further grief. No one needed to make a scene, or raise tempers. I made a fair wage, and I figure it didn't cost that family a penny,,,,,,,, it came right out of the funeral director's OVER CHARGED pocket. The f.home was happy,  I was fine, and the family really made out. I don't think the funeral director was really happy, but he did "save face" by no one needing to bring in a casket to save money at his place! So, he was fine too...
>The FTC designed the funeral rule to promote competition and bring prices down.  When two kitty corner gas stations have a price war on gas the consumer wins even if one gas station goes belly up in the war!  
----It can happen any day of the week here, I won't go belly up. It is not the sole source of income here, our construction co. has 3 projects going at the moment, and just got off a $175,000.00 one. Let's strike a bargin, you loose money on your caskets, I'll get the shopping (savings) fee and the family saves thousands......no haggling at the meeting due to deaths, and "we all save face, get happy"
Maybe the new slogan should read "One Low Price..... it only changes everything about buying a car. err, I mean a casket!" So, the FTC will need to determine if that's meeting their rule or not. Your price point pitch - don't think so myself. But pity those families that don't know about the casket store, and pity the salesman (read f.d.)that reduces the cost due to them and not just the whole gang of customers he sees. That was the FTC intent! That's what happens at the kitty gas stat/areas, not selective due to a buyer's knowledge of the casket store competition!!

A nice site on www.sympathyshare.com/ sympathy sharing, a refresher course for those that might need it.


Message ce9cf221RN9-3706-745-00.htm, number 142, was posted on Wed Feb 23 at 12:24:57
Pretty Quiet; Maybe This Will Start Some Discussion

robin
jtbod1@netscape.net


Got this from EFSA's weekly update.  Thought it interesting as, in this case, there is no casket store involved; it's one l.f.d ticking off another with a retail sale delivered to his f.home.  Comments?

In a message dated 2/10/00 18:30:46, FD in Connecticut writes: We just had our first online casket purchase wherein the client ordered her Batesville Embassy Cherry from a funeral director in Florida and had it delivered to our location in Connecticut. Not only was the casket purchased online but the Burial Vault, a Wilbert Monticello, was also purchased in the same way and delivered to the Cemetery. It also seems the flowers were ordered in the same way.

I know we are required to receive the items which of course we did. However, it does make us consider the fact that we may have to alter our pricing system in order to be competitive with this changing market.

I'm writing this as a feeler to others who have been in the same situation and the methods they have considered to sustain in this type of market. I would appreciate any input available. I might add I'm in a city of 65,000 and have some competition to contend with which forces me to keep our services etc. at competitive rates, especially in dealing with telephone inquirers. This does not make me govern my pricing but it does make me be somewhere in the ballpark with others.

Thanks and regards

In a message dated 2/11/00 18:44:41, LOWELL MA writes:

The biq questions are 2

1. did a Batesville Truck deleliver the casket ????

2. did a wilbert truck deliver and service the vault ???

Please advise and Ill put it in the next weekly update

thanks for your send, the infomation will be most helpful to help prevent this from happening again.

Thanks

John

In a message dated 2/11/00 22:58:26, FD in Connecticut writes: Read your e mail regarding online sale and to answer your questions, Batesville and Wilbert both delivered the product. I appreciate your response and I'll be awaiting further correspondence.

Keep me posted as to reaction from others.

Batesville Responds

In a message dated 2/17/00 14:51:18, Joe.Weigel@batesville.com writes: Thank you for the opportunity to reply to your question on the delivery of a Batesville casket to a Connecticut funeral home originally sold to a family over the Internet by a licensed funeral firm in Florida. The increasing growth of third party casket sellers, sespecially on the Internet, continues to be a challenge that faces all of us in funeral ervice. In order to ensure there is no confusion regarding our long-standing policy on the sale and delivery of our caskets, it is beneficial to reaffirm periodically this policy:

It is and has been the policy of Batesville Casket Company to sell our caskets only to licensed funeral professionals operating licensed funeral firms. Additionally, Batesville Casket will deliver caskets only to licensed funeral professionals operating licensed funeral firms.

Occasionally, a Batesville customer may request that we deliver a casket to another funeral home in another city or state. In these situations, we will deliver the casket  only when authorized by the receiving funeral home as outlined in the procedure below:

For example, when an order is placed with a CSC location for delivery to a funeral home which is not the firm placing the order (or a branch of it), Batesville will notify the calling funeral home that it is their (the calling funeral home's) responsibility to contact the receiving funeral home to get the receiving funeral home's approval to accept the casket. The funeral home which is to receive the casket will then call Batesville, place the order and instruct Batesville to bill the original, calling funeral home.

Batesville is under no obligation to contact the receiving funeral home for its initial approval to accept the casket nor can Batesville require the receiving firm to accept a casket ordered by another Batesville customer.

The purpose of this policy is to ensure we do not inadvertently accept an order from a third party seller for subsequent delivery to another funeral home, thereby becoming
their delivery service.

It is the ultimate decision of the receiving funeral home whether or not they will accept the shipment of the casket that is being billed to someone else. Thank you for the opportunity to present our perspective on this matter.

End Batesville Response


Message cf577c75CZt-3707-1030-00.htm, number 143, was posted on Thu Feb 24 at 17:13:30
They're MAYBE going to invite us to leave....

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


(A copy of my "agreement" ~ it shouldn't be this hard, look at Robin's post below...my note to it at the end here. If you want to "swipe" this, and use it at your store, be my guest. I do think this is the next Tactic that will be used, so arm yourself- just put in your c.s. name and say, one of our NCRA member's experiance. :-<

They're MAYBE going to invite us to leave.....

I have to applaud you for making the effort to "go outside" and call me to save money for you. And I
want you to know,  I am on your side, and understand that in your grief, you just want peace, along
with the savings I can offer.  Our casket store is now over two years old, and I can give you
testimonials from others that A Team Masters has helped saved money, enabling them to buy a
quality product with ease and assurance of delivery when stated. The funeral industry has tried to
fight the freedom of the public to purchase "outside" tooth and nail. We have lived down being called
fly by nights, promoters of bad product, no real savings and now this last straw. You called me
because you have a choice, you can spend from the funeral director showroom, or you can lean on
me alittle, to see if indeed, I can save your hard earned cash for you. One of the things I am
committed at is to be a professional shopper. I don't just save money for you on your choice of
caskets, I might also be able to save you a considerable amount of money on other things associated
with the burial of a loved one. Sometimes I have been invited from my clients, to go with them to the
funeral home. As a friend, as a professional shopper, and even as a funeral consultant, to assure
them they are not "getting the business."  Well, this is an interesting field, I have seen things I thought
I'd never see, and now this---because I sell caskets, and SOME funeral directors know my
competition is real, they dislike me being so bold about it. About YOU being so bold about asking
someone "outside" for assistance. They want your business, yet, SOME of them want it on THEIR
terms. Just this week, I sat in on a "meeting" with a family of three daughters and the father, at the
local funeral home, where they went to make arrangements to bury their Mom. Whew, that funeral
director "invited" them to leave 3 times - during that TWO hours that he kept them there. ("NO, at
our funeral home, even for immediate family good byes and a closed casket, you need embalming, if
you don't like it you can go to another funeral home" )I'll go into more with you later, but please
believe me, not all funeral directors are like that, thank you Lord. At the end, he asked me, "Can I
ask you to leave us for just five minutes?"  Well, that set off one of the daughters, and she said I was
with them. But, when the funeral director asked me a second time, just for five minutes, I didn't think
he'd cause that family further grief with this request, so I said "Yes." (a mistake I will never do again)
When I came back, that Dad said, " Betty, we'll pay you for your time." Seems this salesman had
bargained his product down to the same cost as mine, even ONE hundred dollars less. He said I
sure saved them a lot of money, (meaning without me, they would have never been able to question
the total amount) and the "haggling" he did (boy, you should have seen him sweating when I came
back in) by reducing his price $2,000.00 on the casket and $435.00 on the grave liner, for a total of
nearly $2,500.00!! The salesman's ace in the hole, was Dad saying his wife liked that funeral home.
The family was in enough grief, I wasn't going to add to it, like I said, he had them there two hours
already, and the father you could see, was giving in because he was tired. So, this is our
"CONTRACT" You called me to save you money, I will be your "Professional Shopper" if you want
me to attend any meetings with you at the funeral home or the cemetery. If you are "invited to leave"
please, let's go. If you see I am "invited to leave for even 5 minutes" please - let's stand up and say -
"I'm going to pass on the opportunity to do business at this funeral home" I don't want you to be put
in the scene of someone "haggling" with you at a time like this. I can help you save money without
any pressure put on you, who you want to do business with. If, for some reason, however, you have
a change of heart, I can understand that. If you know me at all, you know I am upstanding and not
pushy. The funeral director should have offered you the best price without your needing to look
elsewhere. A Team Masters product is something I brag about, the units are some of the same that
are available in the funeral home showroom. If however, you are interested to hear what the salesperson
has to say,( and I'm asked for 5 minutes) I will, if after asking you, leave you for five minutes. When
I come back, if you have chosen to not buy the product from me, my fee will be 20% of whatever
amount I saved you. (It averages $300.00 - the discounted fee I charged the three daughters, seeing
as how that salesman had put them through that - to $471.00 the highest my commission has been,
but I saved them sooooo much!) Even after paying me the professional shopper's fee, you could
save anywhere from $700.00 to $2,000.00 or better. The daughter said she was happy to pay me
the money, that her mother would never have believed what that funeral director put them through.
(So, no repeat family  business there, and bad press from me too, what did he gain? What it is, if
some of the industry think lost sales =me out of business, they they won't have my competition to
worry about, overcharging once again) But, please understand, my mission is to save you money. If
you buy your funeral goods from A Team Masters, you'll be pleased to see how professional
salespeople are at a time like this,  see our product is A-1 Class, and it's so easy to save a huge
amount, you'll be back - whenever the need to think of funeral items comes up again.

If, however, you run into a situation where you are "talked" out of using us, our agreement is your
payment as outlined above, for my professional shopper's service fee. If also, for any reason, the
funeral director "invites" us to leave (because of the "house rules that change to suit the sales force")
once (s)he finds that you are in company of myself, and we do not get the chance to save you any
money,(by the sale of our product to you) there will still be minimum fee due me, if you choose to stay, because all of a sudden, this struggle that has been thrown in front of you, at a time like this, seems more than it is worth. So,
sorry, it is not, and you never ever ever should be put in a position like that in the first place, and out
of these 2 yrs. that scene with the 3 daughters was a first. But, it is something that we need to
consider, that the  "insiders" will try, because they are seeing those huge dollars fly outside of the
funeral home. We know that there are many other fine funeral homes that do not use these "tactics"

I have read, understand and agree to the above:  Name &
phone________________________________________date__________
(this agreement is made in duplicate, from the CEO of A Team Master's Casket store, Betty Brown)
------------------------------------------
Hi Robin, Hoping it will stir some other posts too. I saw that on that site prior, it is a very anti-casket site, like the prior post saying it is Okay to refuse a casket delivery (something about calling the FTC, based upon it might be the wrong size) yet the next time it was brought up, no mention of wrong size, just okay to refuse.
This post is long enough, but it really shouldn't be this hard to complete a business transaction, where we are saving the public so much money, which is/was the FTC intend. Not all of these "blocks!!!!!"  It won't work, it can't be stopped, it just makes them look so bad, those that fight it!! Including Batesville, that's why I
"pass on the opportunity to sell any of their units" whenever I can.
Along with York and Auroa, altho I have sold both of those. Their business practice stinks and I sure don't look forward to ever the day they open the flood gates, and ANY CASKET STORE OWNER ever helping Batesville's bottom line, by adding their units!!





Message cf577c23LmM-3709-804+00.htm, number 144, was posted on Sat Feb 26 at 13:24:57
in reply to cf577c75CZt-3707-1030-00.htm

"What do we need to do to get your business?

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


Maybe we need to bring the Showroom to you!"  (Your ad could read) And that will prevent the scenario of the overpowering, intimidating competition. Most funeral homes also offer this visit to the home, along with a three ring binder or laptop.

Message 98a3c3b3EYS-3703-1165+5f.htm, number 139, was edited on Sat Feb 26 at 13:30:22
and replaces message 98a3c3b3EYS-3703-1165-00.htm

Domain name eCaskets.com for sale to highest bidder!

Craig Brown
craigb@nxs.net


Please go to www.GreatDomains.com and do a search on eCaskets.com.  Thank you for your interest.

[ This message was edited on Sat Feb 26 by webmaster ]


Message cf568424LmM-3709-839+00.htm, number 145, was posted on Sat Feb 26 at 13:59:52
in reply to cf577c75CZt-3707-1030-00.htm

"What do we need to do to get your business?

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


Maybe we need to bring the Showroom to you!"  (Your ad could read) And that will prevent the scenario of the overpowering, intimidating competition. Most funeral homes also offer this visit to the home, along with a three ring binder or laptop. That would also eliminate any overpowering "invitations." Have the family "invite" the funeral director to their house for the "meeting for arrangements" and your sitting in might be more at ease. The practiced salesperson may feel out of place and not in their DOMAIN /element, and most certain not "in charge". (Either way, only the CUSTOMER should be in charge anyway!)There are less interruptions, less of a chance for high pressure and a better  chance of  the best price. One more thing you might do, tell them you have reserved one hour, an hour and a half, or whatever amount of time you wish to spend, so you are not kept there for 2 or three hours!
Of course, this is just my own opinions, and not those of the NCRA in any way. Regards, Rob

Message cdbcc638yCv-3710-1160+00.htm, number 146, was posted on Sun Feb 27 at 19:19:53
in reply to cf577c75CZt-3707-1030-00.htm

Re: The sounds of desperation

store-eliminator
abc@123.net


If you get caught with high prices, force them to pay anyway. HOW DESPERATE!

Message cf56866eCZt-3710-1206+00.htm, number 147, was posted on Sun Feb 27 at 20:07:07
in reply to cdbcc638yCv-3710-1160+00.htm

backs against the wall...

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


On Sun Feb 27, store-eliminator wrote
-------------------------------------
>If you get caught with high prices, force them to pay anyway. HOW DESPERATE!
--Hey buddy, you read something somewhere that I didn't! Or are you reading into something, whatever you'd like it to say. No one here is
deperate. It is the funeral industry that has their "backs against the wall"  If another industry needs more income, like the seasonal ski
slopes, they generate fake snow and extend the season.
If the construction crews need more money, they turn night into day and work all hours, lighting the highway or whatever.
If the newspaper needs more money, they print more papers and hire a few more salespeople (or make widgets, whatever)
But what can the funeral industry do? There are only so many deaths,
there are too many funeral homes in some cities already, and this
industry has tried to keep it so private that no one enters as competition. Hello....so, now the keen watch of the lost dollars to "others" and their "struggle" to keep it in THEIR f.h.

Here is a news pc live.altavista.com/scripts/editorial.dll?ei=1535603&ern=y
negative dollar forcast for big firms
and here is one way a funeral director is trying to promote his biz:
www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/cth437.htm  One of a kind, but not for long??? Funerals shown online as they happen (no comment -geeze - if they want to record something for me to see, let me see them at the "arrangement" meeting, and how the f.d. does that! So maybe that would help something - knowing the whole world is watching, he might give his best prices!!!!!!!!!!)


Message cf568768LmM-3711-1195+00.htm, number 148, was posted on Mon Feb 28 at 19:54:51
in reply to cf56866eCZt-3710-1206+00.htm

Yes, the funeral industry has needed a breath of fresh air for a long time.

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


And they are getting it. With the soon to be (?)release of the FTC ruling, casket stores in the trade and towards what it will be like in years ahead, it is a far cry of what it once was.

Their is a lot more recourse - the Funeral Services Consumer Arbitration Program, or FSCAP, an arm of the National Funeral Directors Association (800-662-7666)is one not mentiontoned here often. Has anyone any news on how well they do?

This is part of a June 98 report: **5. TRENDS IN THE DEATH CARE INDUSTRY. As baby boomers
move into their golden years, we're going to see significant changes in the death care industry, says Jon Thomas, president of Thomas-Pierce & Company, a leading death care succession planner. Among the changes to come: increased consolidation, fewer family-owned businesses, a rise in cremation, and physical changes to funeral home design such as brighter, lighter coloring and the use of pastels to emphasize life in funeral ceremonies. "By 2010, the death care industry will hardly resemble what we know today," says Thomas. News Contact: Robert Cadogan, Communications Group, Email comgroup@aol.com; Phone 561-392-2300

Everyone IS talking:   www.thomaspierce.com/Newsletter/newsletter.html

Facts on this changing market as one sees it and a touch of humor from another group: www.aaolfreedom.com/val/funeral.html

But, all agree, NOTHING IS STAYING THE SAME AS IT WAS! And that sure is great news in
this "aim of upgrading the death care culture"


Message cdbcc599Ql6-3715-539-00.htm, number 149, was posted on Fri Mar 3 at 08:58:43
27 caskets below wholesale.

Sean
casketmakr@aol.com


I need to deplete inventory by April 1, 2000.  I have about 5 models to choose from, all 20g. steel.  I will be accepting all reasonable offers.  Delivery is dependant on location at an additional fee.  Movers dollies are included with each casket.  Please, serious inquiries only.  Have a good weekend.

Message cf5684deCZt-3720-687-00.htm, number 150, was posted on Wed Mar 8 at 11:28:11
Pay now and Pay later

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


(taken in part) from:
YOUR FAMILY: THE FINAL PAYMENT THE FUNERAL INDUSTRY IS GREEDIER THAN
EVER. HERE'S HOW TO AVOID A GOUGING ON...
(Money) Money, 09-01-1997, pp 86+.
PAY NOW AND PAY LATER

Funeral directors and cemetery owners have convinced about 17
million adults to prepay or to buy burial insurance to cover at
least some portion of their final expenses. In many states,
funeral directors must put 100% of this so-called pre-needs
money in trust; cemeteries are subject to much looser regulations.

The contracts and policies have tremendous drawbacks. For
example, if customers move away, most states allow only partial
refunds. Worse, few states check to see whether the funeral
homes and cemeteries actually have the money in trust, says
Karen Leonard, an industry expert who was the researcher on
Mitford's The American Way of Death. Indeed, pre-needs customers
have lost big bucks in California, Illinois, Iowa and
Pennsylvania in recent years.

Contracts also give funeral homes plenty of outs if the money
paid up front doesn't cover the cost of the funeral. Take the
case of Stella Guidry of New Orleans, who died in June 1995. Her
pre-needs policy from Security Industrial Insurance, a company
since purchased by the Loewen Group, promised her a full
funeral, including embalming, a hearse, three limousines and a
"Superior Wooden Casket, Deluxe Upholstery." But when her
children Henry and Marie tried to collect, they were shown a
casket that Henry describes as a six-sided "Dracula model." It
was made of particleboard covered with fuzzy gray padding. "When
Marie saw it, she burst into tears," he says.

Guidry chose a $2,200 poplar casket as a substitute. Doing so,
however, required the siblings to forfeit all the other benefits
available under the policy, save a $500 credit. They wound up
paying $6,257 of their own money for the funeral. Guidry and
several other families are now suing.

Here's what you can do:

Instead of paying a funeral director in advance, consider
placing money in a Totten trust (also called an "in trust for"
or "pay upon death" account). Not really a trust, it's a special
bank account payable at the time of death to whomever you
designate. So, when you die, the beneficiary can easily withdraw
the funds for funeral expenses. That's probably the best thing
you can do for your kids--and yourself.

Reporter associate: Roberta Kirwan (end copy)

I am going to try to look up links for bookmarks on the Totten trusts.
And will link them here soon. Does anyone have any other information on this?


Message cf577cc3LmM-3721-525-00.htm, number 151, was posted on Thu Mar 9 at 08:46:03
Rest in Peace (R.I.P. OFF from AARP article)

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


This article is a great eye opener the AARP has wrote for their members. No doubt, the very powerful NFDA is going to try to break the report apart to see if they can "save face" and discredit it as a whole.  It is a very well written article, and I think the casket stores need to write into the AARP and thank them for telling it like it is. One the one poll we had up at this site, concerning FTC funeral rule information, and there were over 30% that clicked "no clue." The AARP linked the NCRA site to this nice write up, and mentioned the store directory listing here. Please read the whole article and go off to the other links they offer. I am now signing up to be a member - if they can write things as they are, and not be concerned with any lash back from the NFDA, they deserve all our support. We all should perhaps write in too, and order reprints ;)but for sure, a large THANK YOU letter for the expose and detailed information on how to avoid getting swindled.  

www.aarp.org/mmaturity/mar_apr00/ripoff.html


Message cf577cafLmM-3721-993+00.htm, number 152, was posted on Thu Mar 9 at 16:33:41
in reply to cf577cc3LmM-3721-525-00.htm

The jig is up

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


In the mailbag, one of our members writes:

WHEN A FUNERAL HOME INFLATES THEIR SERVICE PRICE AND THEN OFFERS A DISCOUNT IF THE CASKET IS PURCHASED FROM THE FUNERAL HOME IT IS A DECEPTIVE TRADE PRACTICE. THIS IS NOT A PACKAGE DISCOUNT. . . IT IS A PHONY DISCOUNT. THE PRACTICE IS WIDE SPREAD IN AREAS WHERE CASKET STORES EXIST. SCOTT GILLIGAN, CHIEF COUNSEL FOR THE   NFDA ADMITTED THAT THIS DECEPTIVE PRACTICE SHOULD BE ADDRESSED IN THE COURTS.

This is in response to the fact that YES, there has been a flury of action from the NFDA in response to the AARP article & reports. ("The Better Business Bureau reports they receive far fewer complaints about funeral service than other businesses. Consumers participating in Gallup Polls conducted during the past decade consistently ranked funeral directors among the most honest and ethical professions") is a defense they are trying to use. Does the above "tactic" look like someone so honest and professional? No, it is not.

And this sham discount if a very real fact that some morticians are doing. That and brow beating the customer to buy their caskets (if they match the price of the casket stores)By the time one adds up all of the costs associated with burying a loved one, it is a huge outlay. (One of the third largest is true, in MOST cases. Sure some people spend a lot on a vacation, but THAT much?) In the AARP article, there is a quote "In the name of the dollar, you've robbed them of what they came to get, which is a celebration of the memory of their loved one."  Which is what these "tactics" above does. Let the customer
chose what they want, they don't need a funeral director using this opportunity to "keep the sale, anyway that they can."

Whatever the NFDA says is a drawback of purchasing caskets from casket retailers, is only their opinion, and again, it is slanted with the idea of keeping the sale at the funeral home. It is not an accurate "color" of the sale or purchase at all. It is a very dark shade of gray, and just because they are trying to cause doubt (with the hope it might work)PERHAPS shows what "tatics" the trade will stoop to, when trying to close out the competition.

All in the name of a dollar, all at a time of enough stress in one's day, AND all in the name of trust. The jig is up, complain to the BBB whenever a funeral director does you wrong (as a customer) or a retailer, if that is the gauge they use. The "tatictics" need to stop, and the mud slinging, and TRYING to make it a tug of war. Let the people be the ones who deceide where to shop, not the NFDA or a funeral director. END of story


Message 98a3c3b3KyG-3722-1280+00.htm, number 153, was posted on Fri Mar 10 at 21:20:04
in reply to cf577cafLmM-3721-993+00.htm

Re: Your the jig

James Johnston
jj@hotmail.com


What Mr. Gilligan is saying is to the is FTC don't do anything this is a court matter. HE KNOWS THAT CASKET STORES DON'T HAVE THE MONEY TO FIGHT IT IN COURT AND NEVER WILL! So in essence he's saying fxxk the casket store they're no real threat.

By the way the anti-trust atty's that Delores brought to the meeting two years ago said you must fight it within two years or it becomes ok!


Message 98a3c3b3KyG-3722-1280+00.htm, number 153, was edited on Sat Mar 11 at 16:03:29
Re: the jig

James Johnston
jj@hotmail.com


What Mr. Gilligan is saying is to the is FTC don't do anything this is a court matter. HE KNOWS THAT CASKET STORES DON'T HAVE THE MONEY TO FIGHT IT IN COURT AND NEVER WILL! So in essence he's saying -- the casket store they're no real threat.

By the way the anti-trust atty's that Delores brought to the meeting two years ago said you must fight it within two years or it becomes ok!

(foul words are not permitted. Removed by webmaster. Also, you might let us know what documentation you have to back up what you say about the atty D. A. brought in. Or how you arrive at the fact casket stores aren't willing to fight. These things take time, and something MAY be in the works. And if the c.s. was not a real threat, do you think the "trade & their groups"  would TRY so HARD to try getting the public to see things THEIR way, and keep the sale inside of the funeral home?)

[ This message was edited on Sat Mar 11 by webmaster ]


Message cf5687aaCZt-3724-598+00.htm, number 154, was posted on Sun Mar 12 at 09:58:34
in reply to 98a3c3b3KyG-3722-1280+00.htm

Message cf5687aaCZt-3724-605+00.htm, number 155, was posted on Sun Mar 12 at 10:05:10
in reply to 98a3c3b3KyG-3722-1280+00.htm

the OTHER bb

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


over at funeral.com (which is being bought or taken over by Wilbert I think - when I did a search the home page used to come up -instead of a html, they used shtml. Then moused over the contact and it was them)
but anyway, the funeral.com bb had been filled with "foul words" and name calling. And so, now it is down. I doubt they will spend hours at this late date to "clean it up" So, a few have ruined it for all.
Do posters really think that someone is going to pay for a site, and that people want to read trash like that?  It is interesting to see all sides and what others think - and the bb over at funeral.com is what made the site popular. If they remove it, it is a shame. But, some disrespectful posters that used it however they wanted, thinking they were getting away with it, now they know. They were crazy.

And if the NFDA is squirrming due to the AARP article - that must mean
that they take it serious. It is an eye opener that does a great service for everyone. It gets the word out that they (customers) don't have to take it, that there are more choices and how to stand up against f.d. that try to sell more than what they wanted to buy!!


FONT COLOR="red">Message cdbcc027z5a-3726-374-00.htm, number 156, was posted on Tue Mar 14 at 06:14:10

R.I.P

competitive caskets inc.
jjjgjs@aol.com


WHAT A GREAT ARTICLE!!!PLEASE SEND-A EMAIL,LETTER AND OR CALL THEM TO THANK THEM FOR A SUPER ARTICLE.....REMEMBER AARP IS HELPING US TO GET THE WORD OUT TO THE PEOPLE WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON! SO THANK THEM NOW!!! GEORGE SILVA

Message cf5685c3CZt-3726-648-00.htm, number 157, was posted on Tue Mar 14 at 10:48:34
The POWER of the National Funeral Director's Assoc.

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


Is it FAIR for the NFDA to lend their weight to "congress" any issue that benefits the members of the NFDA or /and just their own interests?

To "strike" the need to pay overtime to employees of a funeral director. (Is that occupation any more important than many many others that are REQUIRED to pay time and one half to employees that work it?)
I think not, it just appears that the lobbying group has the power to sway some people in high places, to introduce such a bill. And who is the benfiting person? The Owner of a funeral home, not those that work there!
thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:S.2405:

And to see other issues at the moment, that they are working on:
congress.nw.dc.us/cgi-bin/issue.pl?dir=nfda&command=bills

So, yes, your voice anywhere in these issuses or the AARP authors, need to hear from you. Let's help stop / or at least slow down ~ the one sided powers that be!

Keep in touch with capitoladvantage.com/h/
And check out: congress.nw.dc.us/cgi-bin/issue.pl?dir=nfda&command=votelib
one more to enter your zip code to see how voted, and who to contact
ckeck out the link there for zip codes.


Message ce9cf221RN9-3727-501-00.htm, number 158, was posted on Wed Mar 15 at 08:21:10
Betty: How do you answer these issues? (On line purchases)

robin
jtbod1@netscape.net


Hi.  No, I'm not trying to start an argument, but my friend (and stock advisor) and, of course, a funeral director, emailed me this.  I realize this is probably very isolated and rare, but this is his concern.  Read and comment please.

>>Thought I would share a difficult experience I had recently with a casket that a family
had purchased online. I received a call from a family member asking if our funeral
home would handle services for a funeral if the family purchased the casket already. Of
course I said we would be happy to work with them. They had called four funeral
homes that morning and either felt like they were being "talked down to" or that the
funeral home did not wish to handle the funeral.

They had an imminent death and I had to give all of the information they requested
over the phone. After speaking to this family for 45 mins., he stated that he would like
to send his wife over to look over the funeral home. She and her mother arrived and
they eventually asked if they could see my solid cherry casket. She then asked if she
could use my phone. She called her husband and said that the funeral home was fine,
and that the cherry casket we had was nice and in his price range. When she got off the
phone, she said that her husband would be calling me back shortly but that she felt
everything would be just fine.

The husband then called and stated that he had tried to cancel the casket he had
purchased online only an hour previous, but they refused stating that the casket had
already been shipped. He apologized, and hoped that there would be no problems. That
evening his father passed away.

The following morning while on a funeral our service paged us to tell us that there was
a company at the funeral home with a 365 "package" to be delivered. I told them if he
called back, tell him he would have to wait until we were done with our funeral. When a
man was available I sent him back to the funeral home. There was an 18 wheeler in the
lot, and a casket fully crated on the tail gate of the truck. When the driver was asked if
he was taking the crate off, he replied, nope, I just deliver them, where do you want it?

My man asked a few more questions and the driver said look, its a delivery, take it or
leave it, I couldn't care less. You have to sign the paper work. I will not wait around until
you uncrate it. If you don't like the rules, I will take it back. I don't give a @#!*. Unsure of
how to handle it, my guy signed the paper work and noted that the crate was fine, the
contents have not been checked. So now we had a crate the size of two caskets, and
no crow bar.

To say it was a project to uncrate is an understatement. It took three of us, and still we
nicked the finish. As soon as we had finished and got this up on a church truck, the
family called. They want to know the measurements. We gave the best we could
estimate and they said they would be right there. The casket it turns out, is to big for
the old family mausoleum! So the sons show up and we have to confess that in the
effort to remove the crate, evidence which was now cluttering up our driveway, we
nicked the finish on one corner. They were okay with that, but had to see the
measurements for themselves. Once they confirmed, they called the casket dealer,
and explained the situation. The person at the company measured his model and said
the it is exactly what we needed it to be, if you measured it this way. We had to get a
board, put the casket on a smooth surface and put the flat, straight board on the lid and
then measure from the floor to the underside of the board. He was correct. By
measurement, the casket would fit with less than an 1/8th of and inch to spare. Then
came the width. It most definitely was at least three inches too wide. The casket dealer
said oh well, you will have to take off the trim, I cant take it back for that reason.

So the morning of the funeral after all of the family had left the cemetery, in weather
with a temperature of 20 below with the wind chill, we and the wonderfully helpful
cemetery crew, pried off the bottom trim of the casket with hammers and crow bars,
and then, crammed the casket in, mercilessly scraping the top of the casket the entire
length of the crypt.

I honestly believe that if a family requests to bring a casket in from online ever again, I will suggest that they have it delivered to their home, and once they approve its
condition, we will pick it up and bring it to the funeral home. I never want to go through
that again.>>


Message d1770bd2CZt-3727-663+00.htm, number 159, was posted on Wed Mar 15 at 11:03:28
in reply to ce9cf221RN9-3727-501-00.htm

Re: On line purchases

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


On Wed Mar 15, robin wrote
--------------------------
>Hi.  No, I'm not trying to start an argument, but my friend (and stock advisor) and, of course, a funeral director, emailed me this.  I realize this is probably very isolated and rare, but this is his concern.  Read and comment please.

>After speaking to this family for 45 mins., he stated that he would like
>to send his wife over to look over the funeral home.


Hi Robin
The purchase of the outside unit shouldn't have:
1: Required permission from any funeral home (let alone a few! And a denial of service - some people don't understand too much at all!)
2) The family called and ordered something, they were in a heartbreak
mode, I feel sorry for them. They also are the cause of part of this problem. They should have been more responsible in obtaining the size from the start.
3) Check out this link www.wvfda.org/news1998.htm#casket
I wonder if that "in the price range" was such from the start. Why would anyone even think of calling to cancel an order (from anywhere)
if they had got what they wanted when they placed the order? They were dealing with a  need asap and now they are still shopping??
4)The f.d. attitude was harmful, helpful and abusive too. Why ask the driver to unwrap a package? Why didn't the caller (who alerted the f.d. the package arrived) sign as noted - that the one who finally did sign, instead of making him wait? Why didn't they run up to the local hardware and get the proper "tool" to uncrate" it, it wouldn't have taken nearly so long or so much effort. AND he exaggerated (that's what makes me wonder just alittle) the crate made the casket larger, but twice as large? If the f.d. is willing to ask a family to accept packages at their home, and go pick it up, but wonders about the future actions he might take,,,,,he could have asked the sons to uncrate it from the start.
5) The famliy errored in not getting the measurement restriction from the start when they ordered the unit. The c.s. owner could have asked if there were any size restrictions - or where it would be used. But that might be streaching it - they would ask about the size of the person that the casket was intended for (to see if oversize needed) but if that person was ordered a new van, and found out when it got to his house that the garage door wasn't going to permit entrance, whose fault is it? Should the car dealer take the loss? The family also errored in not getting the cancelation policy if that was something they thought they might do. WHY were they still shopping? Did someone offer a "deal?" This I wonder......f.h. prices are not in the same ball park, from the start. (There would never have been the need for casket stores if they were)
6) The c.s. owner should have called ahead to find out if the hours of expected arrival would be a problem. He could have used more tac in this too. There would have been time to ship another unit that the size would fit, letting the family pay for the exchange and added expense. The family seemed to have done it's homework, and taken everyone's time to get things right. But it didn't get to the bottom of a very important issure. I feel sorry for the f.d. being placed in the situation he was, and the result that family got, with the way things went. Stuffing it in like that, removing the trim,,,,,,,,,
7) Or the c.s. could have found if there were a nearby c.s. that might want to "exchange" if they could. (Or the f.h. could've asked the family if they wanted to purchase one of theirs that might fit, and use the 1st as a partial "credit" and not need to destroy a beautiful unit, feelings and all.
It's a heartbreaker, the funeral home had a few options, but did the best they could with the way they choose. (25% or so of the f.d. do present some hassles, and we deal with them. Some c.s. owners even go as far as buying the casket at the "package" price the client needed to pay, so they can then sell them the better unit, or what they want, need. And they resell the "exchange" unit at a loss. It works in a situation where keeping the family happy is important. In a case like this, no one was a winner. The other way, no bridges are burnt. And if there ever were a next time (in a tight fit crypt like this sale was)
it was an exper. that all now know how to adjust to?
But believe me, the chances are slim of this happening - MOST all go off without a hitch.
And Robin, why would I think you (my good buddy) are trying to start something? This issue all can learn by, and thanks for bringing it up.


Re: The POWER of the NFDA

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


Their Major victory!!
congress.nw.dc.us/cgi-bin/alertpr_oracle.pl?dir=nfda&alert=193

And a loss for the up and coming and non owners.
Not sure, says member's page, but this is the zip code shortcut to
find your congress person, etc.
congress.nw.dc.us/nfda/index.pl

[ This message was edited on Wed Mar 15 by the author ]


Message cf56876bLmM-3728-456+00.htm, number 161, was posted on Thu Mar 16 at 07:36:30
in reply to d1770bd2CZt-3727-663+00.htm

Pc of advice, casket store purchases from WVFDA

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


From the WVFDA site (linked above) is something that all casket stores might want to print out and mail to their local funeral home that is TRYING that "sham discount"
www.wvfda.org/news1998.htm#casket

Brother, it sure is a shame that they take all these measures to chase away the competition!


Message cf568459LmM-3729-1256-00.htm, number 162, was posted on Fri Mar 17 at 20:56:52
In the mailbag,

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


I have been browsing your site and believe that National Casket
 Retailers Association offers a wonderful service!  I own an
 organization called Celebration Forest that also may benefit the people
 who come through your doors.
 
 Celebration Forest is a memorial tree planting service that is dedicated
 to preserving loving memories hand-in-hand with preserving the
 environment.  We grow trees in a nursery and when they are old enough
 and strong enough, they are planted on a protected forest preserve
 near Sandpoint, Idaho.  The trees are dedicated to loved ones as a sign
 of their heartfelt affection.  
 
 Whether it is a celebration of life or of a life well-lived, Celebration
 Forest is the perfect way to mark all of life's special occasions!
 Please visit our web-site at www.celebrationforest.com for more
 information.  
 
 I would very much like to be listed on your links page and in your
 classifieds under grief sites.  Please reply whether or not this would
 be of interest to you!
 
 Sincerely,
 Heidi Stockton
 Celebration Forest
 9728 Colburn Culver Road
 Sandpoint, ID  83864
 Toll Free (877) 245-7378
 info@celebrationforest.com
 www.celebrationforest.com


///////Grow with us! Please make sure your address is correct and all other information is correct in the store directory. If you are NCRA member - you should have gotten an email from me tonight. Please email me back if you did not.

Good News is worth repeating! PeachTree Casket CEO, Gene Ames has given his blessings for Thelma to become the much needed NCRA sec. and our newsletters will flow again soon. Thank you so much Gene & Thelma!


in reply to cf568459LmM-3729-1256-00.htm
Re: In the mailbag,

robin
jtbod1@netscape.net


While I am admittedly a capitalist, and admire unique for-profit opportunities, please let me comment on this company.  Celebration Forest has all the nice pictures and relaxed tone common to many funeral home web-sites.  But, what that letter doesn't say, is that the tree they plant for you costs $150 (oak); some are less.  My nursery-owner neighbor hinted what the avergae cost to raise an oak seedling to planting size, and that's worse, by far, than the mark-ups suggested by the public casket companies...There are "extras" to identify your tree, and so on.....

So, to be fair, one big casket company does the same thing for free.  (I copy and paste)>>  Living Memorial® Program   Since 1976, funeral service professionals in the United States have taken great pride in offering bereaved families the Living Memorial® tree planting program. It’s a very special program that provides for the planting of a tree as a tribute to your loved one.  Developed by Batesville Casket Company, in agreement with the United States Department of Agriculture Forest Service, the program has been   responsible for planting more than 7 million trees and reforesting more than 14,500 acres in the past two decades.  It is now the largest private reforestation project in the United States.  Since 1976, the Living Memorial program has grown to include forests in Canada, as well as Australia.  When families select a Batesville® casket or an Options® cremation product, a tree seedling is planted in a national forest at no additional cost to to you. While the tree bears no visible identification, you can take great pride in knowing that you are helping contribute to a major environmental initiative. Your family will receive a special certificate from the agency in charge of that particular tree planting activity in the United States, Canada or Australia.   More than just a fitting tribute, this program provides for trees that shelter our wildlife, reduce water and wind erosion and contribute to the purity of the air we breathe. Their existence brings comfort and hope. They will ensure that generations to come will know the beauty of a green planet. What better legacy to leave?

By the way:  He estimates the "mark-up" (including all the overhead, labor, time, materials, from seed to plant, at 10X.  That's worse than a BCC casket, right?

Robin




Message d8408c78MoK-3734-590+00.htm, number 164, was posted on Wed Mar 22 at 09:50:32
in reply to ce9cf221RN9-3733-983+00.htm

Re^2: In the mailbag,

Heidi Stockton
info@celebrationforest.com


My name is Heidi Stockton, co-owner and operator of Celebration Forest.  I would like to comment on "Robin's" view of the sincere service we offer.

In 1995 we began to offer to bereaved individuals a living tree to memorialize their loved one.  This tree is planted in a 10 acre forest, of which the land is privately owned, in the beautiful mountains of North Idaho.  The land has been set aside as a protected forest preserve and can NEVER be used for harvest or development.  This means that all tree owners will be able to locate their tree and visit it for generations to come.

"Other" companies that you referred to do not own the land they plant the trees on and, in turn, do not have to pay land prices and cannot offer a peaceful environment for individual's to visit THEIR OWN tree.  People who are wanting to plant a tree "somewhere" and are not interested in visiting their own tree, for a lower cost, are encouraged to contact these other companies.

The price of our trees start at $49.00.  Our prices must cover our private land payment, labor for professional foresters to keep the forest and trees in perfect health for the entire life of each tree  planted, labor for our customer service representative, the labor and cost of nurturing a seedling, and the printing costs of the certificate, envelopes, postage, etc.  

I admire your dedication to "uncovering" unjust programs, but I assure you Celebration Forest has nothing but a sincere hope for bereaved individuals and a better environment.  All of our customers that have dedicated trees and visited their "living memorials" with nothing but praise cannot all be wrong.

For the rest of our viewing public, I encourage you to visit our site at www.celebrationforest.com and judge for yourself.

Sincerely,
Heidi Stockton,
Celebration Forest
info@celebrationforest.com
www.celebrationforest.com


Message cf5684a7CZt-3734-1085+00.htm, number 165, was posted on Wed Mar 22 at 18:06:23
in reply to d8408c78MoK-3734-590+00.htm

speaking of trees....

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


>"Other" companies that you referred to do not own the land they plant the trees on and, in turn, do not have to pay land prices and cannot offer a peaceful environment for individual's to visit THEIR OWN tree.  People who are wanting to plant a tree "somewhere" and are not interested in visiting their own tree, for a lower cost, are encouraged to contact these other companies.


I do think the planting and maintaining of trees/forests are very important. I think both the "owned" tree and the planting of one in the name of someone's death, is a great idea. (Always wondered how B'Ville did that, surely they plant 100 or so at a time, and then
count them down as needed. No one gets JUST A  tree planted in someone's name after the fact, just for them?? But it sounds like a great idea. Both of the programs do, and one is guaranteed....all the talk from Batesville about that, guess they should take heed now ;-)
Is that tree in my loved one's name ever going to be cut? Will it live? etc. And to visit, well, that's not a given at B'ville. But still, it is far better than doing nothing.

I am into saving green spaces as much as we can. See this link, and send a postcart to those that be, www.ourforests.org/step1.lasso to HELP save our Heritage Forests.  See why......once they're gone.....www.ourforests.org/updates/updates.htm


Message cf56856cCZt-3735-539-00.htm, number 166, was posted on Thu Mar 23 at 08:59:36
should you speak (poem)YES!

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


There's an elephant in the room.
It is large and squatting, so it's hard to get around it.
Yet, we squeeze by with, "How are you?" and "I'm fine"...
And a thousand other forms of trivial chatter.
We talk about the weather.
We talk about work.
We talk about everything else---except the elephant in the
room.
We all know it's there.
We are thinking about the elephant as we talk.
It is constantly on our minds.
For you see, it is a very large elephant.
But we do not talk about the elephant in the room.
Oh, please say her name.
Oh please say "Barbara" again.
Oh, please, lets talk about the elephant in the room.
For if we talk about her death,
Perhaps we can talk about her life.
Can I say "Barbara" and not have you look away?
For if i cannot, you are leaving me
Alone....in a room....
With an elephant.
-----------
Also on another note, do you believe that (first time!!!)the lady that
called yesterday, shopping for her husband's funeral - actually only
could've saved $65.00 dollars on the cost of a lowest end steel casket from me, but DID save $165.00 on the concrete grave liner from me. It
seems the f.d. priced his low cost caskets very competively, yet once the prices went up, I again, beat the costs BIG TIME! That wasn't what the lady wanted, fine with me. And the casket she got, he made it part of a package (I went with them tho, and told her to strike the flower van, they wanted to do it themselves & the printed items, getting them elsewhere less cost)deal after those deductions. BUT his service fees were a lot higher than others in the area, and they had already picked up the body at the hosp. 4am in the morn. Family waited long as they could for them, but never saw them. No gpl given at pick up. How does one handle that?? Shouldn't the pick up have been arranged when the family could've been there? Still in all, nice f.d. and home.

Message cf56841dCZt-3737-551+00.htm, number 169, was posted on Sat Mar 25 at 09:11:19
in reply to cf568768LmM-3711-1195+00.htm

the funeral director has fallen (gallup poll)

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


he Gallup Poll. Nov. 4-7, 1999. N=1,013 adults nationwide. (Note: Most items asked of half the
sample.)
www.pollingreport.com/institut.htm

Just under the Day Care provider, but above the Banker, They got a 35 which is NO WHERE near what the NFDA says they get. NOT good news, but news nonetheless. You would think it would be a little higher tho.


Message cdbcc8b81bg-3739-1421+00.htm, number 170, was posted on Mon Mar 27 at 23:40:37
in reply to cf56841dCZt-3737-551+00.htm

Re: the funeral director has fallen (gallup poll)

ChuckG
cgalvin0970@my-deja.com


On Sat Mar 25, savcash wrote
----------------------------

>Just under the Day Care provider, but above the Banker, They got a 35 which is NO WHERE near what the NFDA says they get. NOT good news, but news nonetheless. You would think it would be a little higher tho.

Betty,
  The latest 1999 Gallup poll you are referring to has been expanded to include 19 additional professions that were not included in past polls.
  In 1998, Funeral Directors ranked 8th out of 26 professions, or about the top 30% of all professions in the poll.   In 1999, we ranked 13th out of 45 professions, or about the top 28% of all professions in the poll.  So our ranking has actually risen by about 2% since the 1998 poll.
  There were no professions that "jumped ahead" of Funeral Directors since the last poll, and our ranking among those professions that were included in past polls, remained the same.
  Also, our high/very high rating of 35% is actually two percent higher than our rating in the 1998 poll, when we ranked 8th out of 26 professions.
  So, I am sorry to disappoint you, but according to the Gallup figures, our honesty/ethics rating has risen once again.

ChuckG


Message cf56848bCZt-3740-1010+00.htm, number 171, was posted on Tue Mar 28 at 16:51:58
in reply to cdbcc8b81bg-3739-1421+00.htm

Re^2: the funeral director profession * NFDA

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


Thanks for setting me straight about the new fields, and the percentages. Could be, just the press is better too, as this field
has become a hot topic. BUT>>>>>SEE links and you'll know how I arrive at this. It is not disappointing, I have no stake in it. It is news that is more than somewhat vauge at times. The poll I linked above was taken---- The Gallup Poll. Nov. 4-7, 1999. N=1,013 adults nationwide. (Note: Most items asked of half the
sample----
--------
and the link from the NFDA saying they are in the top ten for the
9th yr.......www.nfda.org/mediacenter/releases/1999/feb699.html
(copy)Funeral directors were ranked eighth by 1,000 consumers who
                  rated the honesty and ethics of 26 professions in the CNN/USA
                  Today poll conducted in October by The Gallup Organization.
---------For Immediate Release
                                              February 6, 1999------

They need to change their wording, I count the funeral directors in the 13th place from the top. Would think that would be misleading advertising. They certainly should link it to the poll, so people can see for themselves, and clear up the whole matter. It makes them look bad. (It was put up in Feb. of last yr. This is March of a yr later....)


See the link here, in the state of Texas,
www.reporternews.com/1999/texas/change0725.html
some are not filing complaints due to lack of action and the news of this all being as it is. Can the poll be accurate?

However, this link for the career/profession, shows that there will be less than needed up until the yr. 2006, so it is not discourging too many. www.bls.gov/oco/ocos011.htm
(copy)Employment opportunities for funeral directors are expected to be excellent,
         because the number of graduates in mortuary science is likely to continue to be
         lower than the number of job openings in the field. Although funeral directors are
         highly attached to their jobs, more openings will occur because more funeral
         directors are 55 years old and over compared to workers in other areas.

         Employment of funeral directors is expected to increase slower than the average
         for all occupations through the year 2006. Demand for funeral services will rise
         as the population grows, and with it the number of deaths. The population is
         projected to become older because the number of persons age 55 and over is
         expected to increase significantly faster than the population as a whole.
         However, employment growth will be slowed by the number of people going
         into the field; this type of work is not attractive to many people.
Median weekly earnings of full-time salaried funeral directors were $590 in
         1996. The middle 50 percent earned between $447 and $849. The lowest 10
         percent earned less than $356 and the top 10 percent more than $1,072.

         Salaries of funeral directors depend on the number of years of experience in
         funeral services, the number of services performed, the number of facilities
         operated, the area of the country, the size of the community, and the formal
         education of the funeral director. A 1995 survey conducted by the National
         Funeral Directors Association found that the median salary, including bonus, for
         funeral directors ranged from a low of $21,775 annually for those with less than
         5 years in the funeral service business and who performed fewer than 100
         services a year to a high of $106,200 for an owner/manager who operated more
         than three facilities. Those funeral directors who had bachelor degrees tended to
         earn more than those with just a high school education. Those who were located
         in large cities earned more than those in small towns and rural areas. Salaries
         were higher in New England than in the South. -----------

    Sources of Additional Information

         For a list of accredited mortuary science programs and information on the
         funeral service profession, write to:
         The National Funeral Directors Association, 11121 West Oklahoma Ave.,
         Milwaukee, WI 53227-4096.------(end copy)
I think this source of information needs someone else - they are powerful and have the interest of their members at heart.  That is what is disappointing.

   


Message cf5684a6LmM-3741-601-00.htm, number 172, was posted on Wed Mar 29 at 10:03:44
Being a good neighbor

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


We would like to welcome the ACRA organization to the internet and the orderly arrangement of education to the public about the choice in funeral arrangements.

Also, note , the NCRA has no knowledge of nor recommendations about them. We were not contacted prior for any information or involvement. Nor is the NCRA listed on their links page (perhaps this is just an oversight though) Other than our email list of stores and members listed in our store directory, lifted to be placed upon theirs and the mailing to the group, there is no association. Other than, we agree with their ideas, and wish them all the best of luck.

And an added thought, we all know that the NFDA is a very powerful group. They lobby and speak out on behalf of their members. One of the things that I think makes them so powerful is that they are the main force, organization, that most funeral directors join, and they use the member's funds paid in for membership - for their cause. So, that being a driving force, while there is nothing wrong with people (stores) joining more than one group (in fact it is recommend to network as much as possible)however, focusing on the fact that finances and involvement are the keys to making the strongest group possible.
The NCRA was started (see mission) and will continue to be a powerful force, speaking for their ever growing number of members and the public, in this field. So we welcome our new neighbor, and look forward to a beneficial,  informative and significant presence for both the community and stores.


Message cf568593CZt-3741-1184-00.htm, number 173, was posted on Wed Mar 29 at 19:47:30

Message cf568593CZt-3741-1196-00.htm, number 174, was posted on Wed Mar 29 at 19:56:07
"If the FEA is to be a credible...

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


national org., some of us believe that the following must be instituted." (From FAMSA
Lisa C. on the Funeral Ethics Association, after having them review 2 complaints they sent
in, getting unsatisfactory response)
In part she is pushing for changes due to it being ruled by a board run made up of 19
members, dominated by white males from southern Illinois. Listed below, if you agree,
please write into the FAMSA org. to lend support for this as they are planning to attend a
FEA meeting and address this and are looking for those that might have interest to see
changes.

x Democratic control, with the board of directors elected by the membership
x A board that represents cultural, geographic and vocational diversity (all death care
market as well as funeral directors and embalmers)
x A system for responding to complaints that involves a committee, not just one person.
x Open financial records
x Open membership records
If you are a member of FEA or have an interest in this please contact
famsa@funerals.org  Lisa Carlson, Executive Director

(It will behoove you, as it stands now, the response to complaints -as seen below in another post, are handled with amusement when it concerns third party casket retailers or it is terribly one sided and slanted. And funeral directors may not fear response from such a board. The public is not being served as well as they might be with the above changes taking place.)Please write in and let FAMSA know you agree, ASAP.


Message 98a3c542zKW-3742-381-00.htm, number 175, was posted on Thu Mar 30 at 06:21:13
Is it possible that arci.org is the "casket reformer"?

John Smith
jsmith@freei.net


?

Message cf568428CZt-3742-555+00.htm, number 176, was posted on Thu Mar 30 at 09:15:16
in reply to 98a3c542zKW-3742-381-00.htm

Re: Is it possible that arci.org is the "casket reformer"?

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


On Thu Mar 30, John Smith wrote
-------------------------------
>?
Do you say that 'cause you feel like me - all the eumpth behind
one makes more sense. Or because they are new (not well known)?
Or because it is free?

All of the above (or even one) might make you wonder.
But I don't think they are at all. They have the
association with a well know c.s. I don't think members
of the NCRA should fear them because there is certainly
room for more Shouting THE NEWS. But I don't see how free
is going to get it done, and how divided will either. So,
stick like glue and stay involved. In both even. I know
the saying ~ two birds in flight is not as good as one
in hand, or something like that. So, the NCRA is main home,
and another is adding to your resouces, thats all.
But more advertisment can't hurt.


Message 98a3c551zKW-3742-1059-00.htm, number 177, was posted on Thu Mar 30 at 17:39:29
Is the ACRA for real? or an imposter?

John Smith
jsmith@freei.net


How is it that an association pop's up overnight and no one knows who it really is?  Maybe hust some undertakers trying to divert and confuse.  Why don't the board of directors of the acra put their name and affiliation on their website?

Not long ago some instigator called the "casket reformer" had a website for a few days then ZAP!


Message cf5686edCZt-3742-1128-00.htm, number 178, was posted on Thu Mar 30 at 18:49:06
Abbott & Hast

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


Mortuary Management is a mag. put out by Ron Hast (not known as a supporter of casket stores at
all) and inside the current issue  abbottandhast.com/mmcurrent.html
(March) is a write up of Custom Caskets (copy, lead in)

Options Are The Object (Dories, Oregon)
                     It's not only the large casket manufacturers that have tapped into the trend of
personalization -- a small
                     new casket maker in Dorris is also offers to customize caskets for their varied market.
(end copy) Tell me, how is it too, that this url of www.customecaskets.com when clicked, gives
you a "we have moved" message, and redirects you to Peach Tree caskets (our sec.  Thelma's home
site) and more secrets, Peach tree is as surprised as anyone about the link taking people to their site!

And, tell me too, how is it a hugely visited site like www.funeral.com that boasts of several
hundred visitors per day (??????) has been out of service, getting new owners, and not so much as a
whisper by anyone as to what is going on?? Tha last page of Mort/Manag. mag. had a full page ad on
the funeral.com site, but it didn't say a thing. (A lead in, kind of like, you don't know Dick, then they
introduce him later!) It says "more relevant than, say, Tahitian tide tables." (period, full pg ad is
more expensive than most of the funeral director's caskets, yet, nothing)  When the site was up, prior
to them taking the bb down because of some jerks not following the posting rules, I went to the ad site
there, and behold, Wilbert vault was who was the contact................hmmmm......Robin, where are you,
did you buy more stock in them for that reason yet? (or is that not a co. that you "play" in?)

Well, enough wondering, if you missed it, here is A Team Master's  20  Ques
quiz at   www.webpost.net/te/teammaker/quiz.html  New and improved, with an automatic score!


Message cf568525LmM-3742-1239+00.htm, number 180, was posted on Thu Mar 30 at 20:39:01
in reply to 98a3c54ezio-3742-1154+00.htm

Whoa

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


If you have ever put up a web site, it is hard work. It takes a lot of time. And if the site is given a fair chance, it will do fine. And if the public find it useful - only time will tell. And while you are free to express your thoughts, don't jump the gun about what they intend to do. Again, time will tell, chances are - you my friend, may not be correct at all.

Message cf568525LmM-3742-1339-00.htm, number 182, was posted on Thu Mar 30 at 22:19:10
Celebration of the person they were

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


The industry is for ever changed. Check out this site at www.pioneerplanet.com:80
Death in the Family

Message ce9cf221RN9-3743-537+00.htm, number 183, was posted on Fri Mar 31 at 08:58:45
in reply to cf5686edCZt-3742-1128-00.htm

Re: Abbott & Hast (...just Funeral.com)

robin
jtbod1@netscape.net


>And, tell me too, how is it a hugely visited site like www.funeral.com that boasts of several
>hundred visitors per day (??????) has been out of service, getting new owners, and not so much as a whisper by anyone as to what is going on?? Tha last page of Mort/Manag. mag. had a full page ad on the funeral.com site, but it didn't say a thing. (A lead in, kind of like, you don't know Dick, then they introduce him later!) It says "more relevant than, say, Tahitian tide tables." (period, full pg ad is more expensive than most of the funeral director's caskets, yet, nothing)  When the site was up, prior to them taking the bb down because of some jerks not following the posting rules, I went to the ad site there, and behold, Wilbert vault was who was the contact................hmmmm......Robin, where are you, did you buy more stock in them for that reason yet? (or is that not a co. that you "play" in?)

OK BETTY, I'll provide some of my "classified information".  Gimme another post to comment on the Customer Casket question.

Funeral.com.  Boy, that has you wondering, doesn't it?  First, the site was not "taken down" because of posting problems.  It was sold, at a domain auction.  The legal buyer is PeaceLight Industries, 98 Dellwood Ave, White Bear Lake, MN 55110.  This address is the home of Christopher (Chris) Brown, and his answering machine may be called at  (612) 747-4441 for information regarding the Funeral.com Internet site.  The advertising for the site is being handled by Risdall Linnihan Advertising, 2475 15th Street N.W., New Brighton, MN 55112-5506.  You may email them for site and ad info at webmaster@RISDALL.COM, or you may email Chris at memory@FUNERAL.COM.  

The site server is Minnesota Regional Network (email hostmaster@mr.net) 2829 University Av SE, Suite 200 Minneapolis, MN 55414 (612) 362-5800.
         
FYI, I cannot invest in Wilbert.  Neither can you.  It is privately held.  Certain licensees of Wilbert (generally, but not all of them, own concrete operations) and own the vast majority of the stock.  The headquarters is located in a Chicago suburb (I have visited it twice; no big deal, nothing fancy).  One of the largest Wilbert licensee concentrations in the U.S. is located in St. Paul Minnesota.  The above address (of funeral.com) is a rather wealthy area located next to a yacht club on White Bear Lake, about 5 miles from St. Paul.  St. Paul hosts Brown-Wilbert, maybe the largest of the 200 or so Wilbert dealers.

If you think Wilbert is "involved", simply call the site coordinator, or the advertising agency, and ask what is required to place an ad.  That'll get you the info that is racking your curiosity, and then you can post on this board for all to know.

I already do, but ain't squeeling.  I'll respond after a cup of coffee or two regarding the other subject(s.  Also, I have the rate schedule for Mortuary Management in front of me for a full page ad.  (BTW, it was on Page 45, not at the end)  Guess how much it costs?

See ya...

Robin, who seems to know more than usual, lately,




Message ce9cf221RN9-3743-549+00.htm, number 184, was posted on Fri Mar 31 at 09:09:01
in reply to ce9cf221RN9-3743-537+00.htm

Re^2: Abbott & Hast (...just Funeral.com)

robin
jtbod1@netscape.net


clients.mapquest.com/infoseek/mqcustomconnect?screen=map&link=map&fa=%5b82-98%5d98%20DELLWOOD%20AVE&fc=WHITE%20BEAR%20LAKE&fs=MN&fz=55110-1401&height=300&mg=-929695&ml=9&mt=450863&orig_lat=450863&orig_lng=-929695&si=2&so=1&ss=1&width=440&x=34&y=7&level=8&e

In case you'd like to drive over and discuss the matter with Mr. Brown.  Hey..he's got the same last name as (1) Betty, but, more importantly, as (2) the owners of the biggest Wilbert franchise in the U.S.  

The plot thickens

Robin


Message ce9cf221RN9-3743-568-00.htm, number 185, was posted on Fri Mar 31 at 09:28:29
Info to Betty on ConsumerCasket.com

robin
jtbod1@netscape.net


I'll print a new post so that the thread I started regarding the funeral.com website doesn't get everyone confused.

OK, you printed this a few posts down:>>Options Are The Object (Dories, Oregon) It's not only the large casket manufacturers that have tapped into the trend of personalization -- a small new casket maker in Dorris is also offers to customize caskets for their varied market.(end copy) Tell me, how is it too, that this url of www.customecaskets.com when clicked, gives you a "we have moved" message, and redirects you to Peach Tree caskets (our sec.  Thelma's home site) and more secrets, Peach tree is as surprised as anyone about the link taking people to their site!>>

Now Betty, I don't know who "sec. Thelma" is; I assume that means secretery to your business.  Don't care.  What I do know is this:

Registrant of customcaskets.com:
          Tom Hicks (CUSTOMCASKETS-DOM)
             P.O. Box 1613
             Norcross, GA 30091
             US

             Domain Name: CUSTOMCASKETS.COM

             Administrative Contact:
                Kirby, Marcia  (MK1887)  ZuniMaya@AOL.COM
                Network Management Systems Inc.
          2910 Cole Ct. Suite F
          Norcross, GA 30071

                770-448-7763 (FAX) 770-448-2312
             Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
                Hostmaster  (HO1320-ORG)  hostmaster@9NETAVE.COM
                9NETAVE
          110 Meadowlands Pkwy
          Secaucus, NJ 07094
          US

                000-000-0000
          Fax- 000-000-0000
             Billing Contact:
                Hicks, Tom  (TH6015)  casketshop@AOL.COM
                Peachtree Caskets
          P.O. Box 1613
          Norcross , GA 30091

                770-952-2753

             Record last updated on 28-Sep-1999.
             Record created on 16-Dec-1998.
             Database last updated on 30-Mar-2000 13:41:38 EST.


SO....How in the heck can Peachtree People "Be Surprised" when it is the SAME registrant of customcaskets.com (Tom Hicks) who is ALSO the billing contact for Peachtree caskets (your secretery's firm).  Unless, of course, Mr. Hicks bought the domain name recently, and has simply initiated the auto-forward of the URL to peachtree caskets.

But, in any case, someone is B.S.ing you.    Go get em pal....

Robin (death detective)


Message ce810017CZt-3743-709+00.htm, number 186, was posted on Fri Mar 31 at 11:49:17
in reply to ce9cf221RN9-3743-568-00.htm

Re:CustomCasket.com

savcash
a-team@stratos.net



>Now Betty, I don't know who "sec. Thelma" is; I assume that means secretery to your business.  Don't care.  What I do know is this:

>SO....How in the heck can Peachtree People "Be Surprised" when it is the SAME registrant of customcaskets.com (Tom Hicks) who is ALSO the billing contact for Peachtree caskets (your secretery's firm).  Unless, of course, Mr. Hicks bought the domain name recently, and has simply initiated the auto-forward of the URL to peachtree caskets.

>But, in any case, someone is B.S.ing you.    Go get em pal....

>Robin (death detective)
Hi, well,,,,,,curious people on top of things - I like that. She is the NCRA sec. Thelma who is also an employee of Peachtrees - source of information I used. However, she had also said (in prior conversation, Peachtree is going thru some changes, so maybe not just up to speed on it all just yet)
But I am curious to find out more about the custom caskets, that was why I looked it up in the first place. Funny that mm would write it up as a new firm & not mention others involved. But, hey, given a little more time, it will all come out I am sure. Then I can check into the custom caskets I want to see.  Thanks for the homework.

And yes, the funeral.com was sold, knew that (did you get a figure? Seen they were asking 4.5 million!!)but your further information has me wondering even more.......thing I hate about it is, of course, the
fact that if indeed Wilbert is the new owner, where does that leave the casket stores for free advertising on a popular site? Or if indeed, it is going to be a site that will inform the public, it sure will be one sided!
As for the cost of the ad - I can only guess. Know it of course depends on what the perceived value of the mag. is (public outreach)
but at the risk of falling for this trap (like I did when Vern asked why a manhole cover was always round, one I will never live down in my mind)I would say in the neighborhood of $10,000 -$14,000.00 ?


Message 98a3c5b8z5a-3743-1112-00.htm, number 187, was posted on Fri Mar 31 at 18:31:53
ROBIN

competitive caskets inc.
jjjgjs@aol.com


YOU ARE GOOD U WANT TO WORK FOR ME? GEORGE COMPETITIVE CASKETS INC N.J.

Message cf577c45CZt-3744-532+00.htm, number 188, was posted on Sat Apr 1 at 08:52:53
in reply to ce9cf221RN9-3743-549+00.htm

(...just Funeral.com)

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


added thought - no matter who they are, they are messing up big time (read dumb, dumb, dumb) if they are trying to make the site the best around.   They have (now useless as is) hundreds of links from all types of search engines pointing to the bb posts. The site did leave it up for 2-3 weeks after it became Wilberts. You mention it wasn't taken down due to abuse, yet why did they even bother to leave it up for a short period of time, if not? So, if they changed it to point to a useful page (to them) on the site, when someone clicks onto one of the links- (it dosen't even point to their homepage! ERROR 404)
www.funeral.com/open_funeral/messages/303.html so instead of the person finding a site that they might not have found otherwise, they waste their time, and if they see it in the future, they ignore it. Bad for their business and a reflection of the owners. So, no matter how much they paid for the full page ad, they threw away much more in advertising (results for dollars money couldn't buy)!
And, talking about owners, many other sites for funeral talk are springing up.....

clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/funeralservicehome


Message cf577c45CZt-3744-546-00.htm, number 189, was posted on Sat Apr 1 at 09:06:51
2001 World Gathering on Bereavement

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


www.wgob.org/  "Listen, contribute and
                    share with others from around the world. There
                    are countless conferences, seminars and
                    workshops concerning the needs of the grieving
                    individuals. This conference is unique in its
                    commitment to bringing together the bereaved,
                    bereavement support organizations and
                    professionals to talk with each other.

                    It's time to see where we've been and where we're
                    headed. Let's gather again for a New Century of
                    Healing."

Well, it's in Ohio too, might want to mark your calandars (if you are a person that would like to learn more about handling grief, related)
----"A Marketplace that includes grief
                                               resources, support services, a library for
                                               the lay person and professional caregiver,
                                               conference memorabilia, gifts and much
                                               more"
                           2001 World Gathering on Bereavement
                           June 13 - 17, 2001


Message cf577c45CZt-3744-566+00.htm, number 190, was posted on Sat Apr 1 at 09:26:39
in reply to 98a3c5b8z5a-3743-1112-00.htm

Re: ROBIN

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


On Fri Mar 31, competitive caskets inc. wrote
---------------------------------------------
>YOU ARE GOOD U WANT TO WORK FOR ME? GEORGE COMPETITIVE CASKETS INC N.J.
-----Hi George:  Yes, he is good, isn't he? And he has a sense of humor too, and I think, money to spare, and a brain to go with it 8-) My impression of Robin is that he isn't looking for any work tho -
don't know if he is his own boss, or if he is retired or semi. BUT
seems he travels alot and has been there, done that a lot too ;-?
A very likeable person, but would guess, hard to hold onto - demanding and opinionated, spoiled even maybe. Much like myself (ha, lol, except
for parts of it)but wonder if he has ever "worked for himself" as it
is not for everyone. Continued "shaking the trees" and wearing all hats for all phases, I couldn't work for someone else again, but it
is alittle stressful in the exchange. Rewards far outnumber the pains-
but if I could eliminate those, I'd be on ninth street! (Most part of it is still related to the construction division!!!!)
How are you doing George? N.J. seems to be growing a lot - reading in the paper. Lots of death care related biz opening up? Sometimes tho, that isn't all bad. You have seniority ;->

Message 1804fc75RN9-3745-1266-00.htm, number 191, was posted on Sun Apr 2 at 21:06:57
A few things on Sunday Evening

robin
jtbod1@netscape.net


1).  Betty:  A full page ad in Mortuary Management, the American Funeral Director, or the NFDA's "Director" are all much less than your guess of over $10,000.  Depending on the probable number of insertions (e.g expected monthly or, just once), you can negotiate from between $1,800 to $2,500.  Sometimes I wonder why you don't just call.  This is not different than any other industry.  The person from sales (advertising) will not ask you who you are; they simply will say "Hello, my name is (I know them all...but you get the point)...how can I help you?"  You say "May I ask what your 4-color (or B&W, and so on) full (or 1/4, or 1/2) single insertion rate is please?"  You will not get a "why do you ask"...you will get an answer.

2).  I read the comments that suggested I was OK for an outsider.  Thanks.  I am humbled.

3).  No, I will not work for you George.

4).  I am fairly experienced in this biz, but not old enough to quit.  I have many other hobbies.  I am generally a straight shooter.  However, due to my own worries, I did lie to you Betty.

5).  I am female. (Lisa Carlson and I have exchanged a few privately; so no kiddin')

Sorry for that....I don't like the "alias" thing, but I must.


Later pal(s)



Message cdbcc5a8z5a-3746-367+00.htm, number 192, was posted on Mon Apr 3 at 06:08:06
in reply to 1804fc75RN9-3745-1266-00.htm

Re: A few things on Sunday Evening

competitive caskets inc.
jjjgjs@aol.com


On Sun Apr 2, robin wrote
-------------------------
>1).  Betty:  A full page ad in Mortuary Management, the American Funeral Director, or the NFDA's "Director" are all much less than your guess of over $10,000.  Depending on the probable number of insertions (e.g expected monthly or, just once), you can negotiate from between $1,800 to $2,500.  Sometimes I wonder why you don't just call.  This is not different than any other industry.  The person from sales (advertising) will not ask you who you are; they simply will say "Hello, my name is (I know them all...but you get the point)...how can I help you?"  You say "May I ask what your 4-color (or B&W, and so on) full (or 1/4, or 1/2) single insertion rate is please?"  You will not get a "why do you ask"...you will get an answer.
MS.ROBIN: VERY UPSET YOU WON'T WORK FOR ME! ROBIN MAN OR WOMEN IT DIDN'T MATTER.....THERE ARE PLENTY OF WOMEN LIKE LISA AND YOURSELF THAT ARE GREAT! WOMEN OR MAN MY OFFER IS STILL OPEN ROBIN? GEORGE COMPETITIVE CASKETS.
>2).  I read the comments that suggested I was OK for an outsider.  Thanks.  I am humbled.

>3).  No, I will not work for you George.

>4).  I am fairly experienced in this biz, but not old enough to quit.  I have many other hobbies.  I am generally a straight shooter.  However, due to my own worries, I did lie to you Betty.

>5).  I am female. (Lisa Carlson and I have exchanged a few privately; so no kiddin')

>Sorry for that....I don't like the "alias" thing, but I must.
>
>
>Later pal(s)
>
>
>


Message cf577c1aCZt-3746-1025+00.htm, number 193, was posted on Mon Apr 3 at 17:06:02
in reply to cdbcc5a8z5a-3746-367+00.htm

Re^2: A few things on Sunday Evening

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


An edge?  I understand...........
>>4).  I am fairly experienced in this biz, but not old enough to quit.  I have many other hobbies.  I am generally a straight shooter.  However, due to my own worries, I did lie to you Betty.

>>5).  I am female. (Lisa Carlson and I have exchanged a few privately; so no kiddin')

>>Sorry for that....I don't like the "alias" thing, but I must.
>>
>>
>>Later pal(s
And a thought, I am glad you stick up for me (mostly)
and even that you feel bad (shows good stuff ;-) but
I get the feeling since someone tricked you into thinking
I was a nuisance like that JOHN DOE (me posting crappola???
Just the impersonator trying to drag me down by signing my
handle to his jerky stuff)I might not always be invited
to buy you a few beers all the time now. Know that I am
true blue and not wishy washy - a pal is a pal, period.
And even if you did cool - stickin around shows good stuff too.
(Could have been my imangination too ;->
And even if you didn't offer that hand of friendshp all
the time, (as some might not) I like that credo "do no harm"
so, person to person, I don't. If I have anything negative
to say about a group, I try to balance it sometimes with the
good things said about them too. There's good and bad in all.
I didn't call, (on the cost of advertising)
thought you said guess, and that is what my guess was-
made it rather high didn't I? So, I thought too,
it might have been a trap if it were too low....
coulda been ya know 8-)Hmmmm, now I'm curious - hate to say it-
but do you know, I didn't have a clue you were not male. (DO
you play hard as they do in the money making investments?)
Good Luck, and thanks for coming clean amego! (Humbles us too)


Message cf568501CZt-3747-1346-00.htm, number 194, was posted on Tue Apr 4 at 22:26:35
death , taxes & other stuff

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


There are only two things certain in this life,
One is Death
The other is taxes. (another link from  this page too, on funeral protocol & other links might be of interest)
www.talewins.com/Life/funerals.htm

Mourning Becomes Montero   --- Health, hope & HIV
www.thebody.com/poz/profiles/4_98/montero.html

And a url just sitting there, no new content, looking for investor -
lots of links, here's one they think someone you know would find funny
deathinfo.com/humor.htm


Message cf568505LmM-3751-663-00.htm, number 195, was posted on Sat Apr 8 at 11:04:04
Funeral Directors learn, join, or see they can't beat the Casket stores.

webmaster
casketstores@email.com



And say: . "A family has a right
                    to save money for a funeral."



                          Casket stores trend
                     Consumers have chance to
                                save money

www.alabamalive.com/news/huntsville/Sep1999/23-e32549.html

And the cost of funerals may be coming down, ads offering more "savings" - knowing that people are shopping for services too. The other funeral directors are not happy!///copy////
Changes Shake Funeral Industry

AGAWAM, Mass. (AP) -- The ad looks like plenty of others: a
                                list of products, prices and a promise to nip off an extra 5
                                percent if you find a better deal elsewhere. Major credit cards
                                accepted, of course.

live.altavista.com/scripts/editorial.dll?ei=1665315&ern=y
//////And some get greedy, and get caught. But try to open another one? We sure are glad that the majority of funeral directors do not behave like this. A very poor example of this trade, but why people have to know more when they "make arrangements" and research who they are dealing with too.////
                             California Department of
                                Consumer Affairs: Cemetery
                                Funeral Bureau Revokes AAA
                                Cremation Services' Funeral
                                Establishment License
live.altavista.com/scripts/editorial.dll?ei=1668847&ern=y
/////And, shopping and cutting costs are not limited to the USA/////
German undertakers move online
                        to cut coffin costs

                        03/28/00

                        DUESSELDORF, Germany, March 28 (Reuters) - Germany's
                        undertakers plan to liven up their business by launching an
                        e-commerce website to cut the costs of death.

live.altavista.com/scripts/editorial.dll?ei=1639417&ern=y

One has to wonder, would these prices be coming down if it were not for third party retail casket stores?  Would the "Trade" be looking at these ways to "save money" or letting people know they have choices? Most of us think not, it has always been a closed market and keeping people in the dark was their best "hand" that they played. That is gone forever!


Message cf5684eaLmM-3753-674-00.htm, number 196, was posted on Mon Apr 10 at 11:14:46
Special Committee on aging

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


Special Committee
              on Aging  meeting concerning funeral trade today 5/10/99 Mon. & Tues.
   By Bill W. a series of press releases concerning
         
                    More scrutiny of funeral
                          homes urged
www.NOLA.Com/t-p/national/index.ssf?/t-p/national/0004100063.html
               Cemetery Board has 'no teeth'
www.NOLA.Com/t-p/national/index.ssf?/t-p/national/0004100065.html
                         Grave concerns
www.NOLA.Com/t-p/walsh/index.ssf?/t-p/walsh/0004080467.html

                      Funeral homes bury
                competition for casket sales
www.NOLA.Com/t-p/walsh/index.ssf?/t-p/walsh/0004080443.html

                                                                     
                                                                         

                Funeral home chains in debt
                      after buying frenzy
www.NOLA.Com/t-p/walsh/index.ssf?/t-p/walsh/0004080451.html


Message c7ae825cNCw-3753-678-00.htm, number 197, was posted on Mon Apr 10 at 11:18:30
Need supplier

Turbo5
dsel196y@mindspring.com


I need a consistent (reliable), supplier to service casket store with caskets.  I live in the southeast US.  I realize there are franchise operations that offer their particular merchandise.  I am interested in dealing directly with a casket manufacturer(s) directly but I have not found anyone willing to sell to me.  Please contact me with suggestions.  I need to get on with this.

Thank you in advance for your kind responses.
Turbo5


Message cf56876bLmM-3753-1369+00.htm, number 198, was posted on Mon Apr 10 at 22:49:35
in reply to c7ae825cNCw-3753-678-00.htm

Re: Needing

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


Hi Turbo;   If you would, email me - also too, if you would supply some more information about what state you are in, etc. maybe someone (here directly) or email you  more information.   I just heard today from a member that they broke their store's record and sold seven caskets in one day on Fri. All though there are stores that that might seem a small amount to some store, there are others that would break their record too!

Message cf56876bLmM-3753-1374+00.htm, number 199, was posted on Mon Apr 10 at 22:54:43
in reply to c7ae825cNCw-3753-678-00.htm

Re: Needing

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


Hi Turbo;   If you would, email me - also too, if you would supply some more information about what state you are in, how many you might be looking for, (did you see the posts belows too? )etc. maybe someone (here directly) or email you  more information.   I just heard today from a member that they broke their store's record and sold seven caskets (to the public) in one day on Friday. All though there are stores that that might seem a small amount to some store, there are others that would break their (retail) record too!

Message c6ea5e6fCZt-3754-1041+00.htm, number 200, was posted on Tue Apr 11 at 17:21:38
in reply to cf5684eaLmM-3753-674-00.htm

Re: Special meeting, days 1 & 2 link!

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


What's new - day two of the hearing, link to hear, see and read the
reports from part of day one. If you read some of the news, gosh, you wonder how anyone can ever say "There's not much of a problem, or the problems aren't widespread." And if you search Yahoo for funeral industry news, the sites that come up tout how things are so good -
about how it is getting eaiser (by sites put up by funeral directors mind you) to "make arrangements & purchases online" The H.Door site started with over $500,000.00 seed money - used for advertising and promotion, and they are now looking for more. You haveta wonder how many "sales" they need to recoup that - and why it would be worth it so much for them, at the start. But we all should know why--- it is a
HUGE industry, and the stakes are high to try to keep it all, or most of it anyway, in house.  I for one, sure am glad that there are concerned and devoted people inside and outside of the funeral industry trade - that are trying to right things. I am glad too, to see that some of the funeral directors are speaking up (something that used to be prohibited STRONGLY!)to try to stop those that would drag them all in the mud further. Now, if only over 75% - 90% would, and the state boards were not run by ------- and the wholesalers would not try to restrict sales to only ------, see, it is far from perfect. But, things are getting better. Let's see, I've sold Batesville, York and just one more to go in the big three and I will have said I've sold them all ;-)(starts w/A)Not because I want to sell them, just to show those powers that be, their "TACTICS" are not working!!!!

www.senate.gov/~aging/whatsnew.htm

Move down the site, you'll see DAY 1 report...people aren't standing for much anymore, but it sure is a shame that anyone needs to go thru all - or any of this. And I applaud the ones in the industry that are trying to set it straight. That takes even more courage than the ones outside are facing.
Oh, by the way - did everyone see where that funeral director sold a casket to a family and later called panic that it wouldn't fit into the crypt?? Not a c.s. involved, and it happens anyway. So, not ALL of them, they all~ don't know enough to ALWAYS to ask if it is going to be a ground burial or not??


Message cf568589CZt-3756-711-00.htm, number 201, was posted on Thu Apr 13 at 11:52:17
sweatshops, no overtime 0r fair pay....

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


I am not in favor of unions at all (constr. trade is reeked with them and dishonest "tactics" to try to get companies to join, and even being called scabs and crime links) However, I would not blame the upcoming funeral directors and embalmers for resenting the 'Tactics'
of the NFDA to get passed, (to assist their members - who are mostly owners more than anyone else) the bill to disallow overtime and comp
pay. (See link few threads below)There was a "picket" of a funeral home and the media ran the story up (the f/d needs all of this negative attention?? What is the NFDA thinking??)and it didn't go well.   Check out this site, and you'll see other sweat shops struggle-  www.msnbc.com/onair/nbc/dateline/time.asp
The funeral home owners have enough problems without this - now -
will the unhappy try to picket? Will they think that justifies a
higher cost of a funeral? If the industry is trying to get new entry
into the "field" now, and some find it too spooky, once the word gets out that it is going to be a low paying job, how will the NFDA react then? Whew, not only no foreward thinking, but shooting themself right in the foot (again)
They spend thousands to try to upstage the bad press, and then they add TO it. Funny - if it were not so sad. They are going to allow  the driver that delivers the coffins, overtime - but not the embalmers that do the hard work! Wait until the media gets ahold of that! (Why I used coffin instead of casket...they will ) And believe me, it is not because the funeral director that owns the home is looking for ways to make the industry better, or even to pass on these savings to the public - check any site showing the wage of the owners.....what they pay themself -
that is what is is all about, at A Big cost of  or to the little guys and gals.

Message cdbcc12cMrT-3757-541-00.htm, number 202, was posted on Fri Apr 14 at 09:01:55
NCRA newsletter

Thelma Jaco
peachtree casket@aol.com


I am currently putting together the NCRA newsletter. If you have any items you would like to submit please e-mail me at Peachtree Casket@aol.com or fax me at 770-457-5597.


Message cf577c7aLmM-3758-905-00.htm, number 203, was posted on Sat Apr 15 at 15:05:30
A peek at things to come?

webmaster
casketstores@email.com



               US FTC: FTC Testimony on funeral rule review
               activities
               APR 12, 2000, M2 Communications - Testifying today at a
               hearing on the death care industry before the Senate
               Special Committee on Aging, Eileen Harrington of the
               Federal Trade Commission's Bureau of Consumer
               Protection provided an overview of the (full story)

www.dbusiness.com/Story/0,1118,NOCITY_69716,00.html

BUT__>>>>  Senator Grassley invites further input from those that might wish to have a say in all of the issues that they are looking at.
" The record will remain opened for TWO WEEKS  for anyone wishing to add additional
comments."
Only 2 weeks, as of the 11th - Tues, of Apirl. Please note date and act now.
The biggest thing is, there is a great chance that the FTC will place casket stores into the rule. This, most of us, do not have any issue with. HOWEVER, we all need to write in and let them all know We have an issue with the firms that are allowed to restrict their wholesale purchases of caskets or vaults - by  just licensed undertakers"
That is un American, and the idea is only to protect the market for the undertaker. Lets all write in, public and retailers alike, and let them know, they need to stop this
anti competitiveness   where it starts!

Additional comments should be addressed to:

Cecil Z. Swamidoss, Deputy Investigator

Special Committee on Aging

D31 Dirksen Senate Office Building

Washington, DC 20510

FAX: 202-224-8660

E-mail: Cecil_Swamidoss@Aging.Senate.Gov
And it would be even better, if you copy it to the FTC at:
funeral@ftc.gov.
//////And our next press release ///////

Success at selling Caskets & entering the funeral trade made very difficult

The National Casket Retailer's Association (NCRA) is made up of devoted owners of casket
stores. It has nothing to do with the teaching of sales technique or the retail end of the business of those members. But what the NCRA does do, is try to make sure that the "field" has a more level and fair competitiveness in the death care industry. They maintain a very informative web site at www.casketstores.com  that has many pages of information the public needs when trying to learn more about this subject, also a bulletin board for those that might want to ask questions or get more feedback, and a store directory.  Going "outside" the regular channels for in depth information on how to save money, who to contact when any abuse might have occurred and reading up on the funeral process, is something everyone should do - and prior to the need to arrange a funeral.

The Senate has conducted two days of hearing in Washington over April 10th & 11th. There were many testimonies of the types of abuse that have happened  in the past. Plus the FTC is considering revision of the funeral rule, and also spoke at the hearing
. The trade has gone through many changes in the last few years - and much of what the public needs to know, has been kept in the dark. The internet has had many new
pages put up on how to plan your funeral on line, how to buy pre need insurance polices and even "casket stores" that are funeral directors selling product to their clients, that get delivered to another mortuary. Many times, the customer is arranging a funeral - at what they think is their neighborhood -long standing reputable named funeral home, when in fact it is owned by one of the largest corporations buying all the Mom & Pop shops they can, and increasing the costs 30% or more. The NCRA would like the public to be informed, and to that end, please ask question after question of the "provider" that you might be seeking services or product of. Know who owns the business, and also, what KEY questions to ask. While it IS  great news the government is looking more in depth of the actions of some of the industry, and trying to protect the public, the bottom line is, those
that are in this trade are  still salespeople, and if you are an uninformed individual,  that is a salesperson's dream. The good in the industry are tarnished for the acts of the dishonest and greedy. Did you know there are MAJOR firms that restrict the wholesale of their caskets and vaults to the retail outlets? Wonder why there would be a need to have a license for an undertaker to sell a grave liner or a hand-crafted wooden casket (or steel, fiberglass)? It is to keep the prices terribly high to the public. If retailers can not get the “goods” they may be forced out of business.  But more and more, the trade is
listening to what the public wants, thanks in part to the Baby Boomers. But  those are just two examples.  The Senate is loking for further comment for a period of 2 weeks, up to April 25th. If you want to write in, the email is: Cecil_Swamidoss@Aging.Senate.Gov
Until a quite few more changes are implemented, it is not a level playing field, and it is not a trade that takes to the public's value of freedom of choice. Visit the NCRA website and learn more.
The National Casket Retailer's Association would also like to welcome  Thema Jaco of PeachTree caskets, as our new secretary.


Message cf577c7aLmM-3758-905+00.htm, number 203, was edited on Sat Apr 15 at 16:23:30
and replaces message cf577c7aLmM-3758-905-00.htm

A peek at things to come?

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


               US FTC: FTC Testimony on funeral rule review
               activities
               APR 12, 2000, M2 Communications - Testifying today at a
               hearing on the death care industry before the Senate
               Special Committee on Aging, Eileen Harrington of the
               Federal Trade Commission's Bureau of Consumer
               Protection provided an overview of the (full story)

www.dbusiness.com/Story/0,1118,NOCITY_69716,00.html

BUT__>>>>  Senator Grassley invites further input from those that might wish to have a say in all of the issues that they are looking at.
" The record will remain opened for TWO WEEKS  for anyone wishing to add additional
comments."
Only 2 weeks, as of the 11th - Tues, of Apirl. Please note date and act now.
The biggest thing is, there is a great chance that the FTC will place casket stores into the rule. This, most of us, do not have any issue with. HOWEVER, we all need to write in and let them all know We have an issue with the firms that are allowed to restrict their wholesale purchases of caskets or vaults - by  just licensed undertakers"
That is un American, and the idea is only to protect the market for the undertaker. Lets all write in, public and retailers alike, and let them know, they need to stop this
anti competitiveness   where it starts!

Additional comments should be addressed to:

Cecil Z. Swamidoss, Deputy Investigator

Special Committee on Aging

D31 Dirksen Senate Office Building

Washington, DC 20510

FAX: 202-224-8660

E-mail: Cecil_Swamidoss@Aging.Senate.Gov
And it would be even better, if you copy it to the FTC at:
funeral@ftc.gov.
//////And our next press release ///////

Success at selling Caskets & entering the retail funeral trade made very difficult

The National Casket Retailer's Association (NCRA) is made up of devoted owners of casket
stores. It has nothing to do with the teaching of sales technique or the retail end of the business of those members. But what the NCRA does do, is try to make sure that the "field" has a more level and fair competitiveness in the death care industry. They maintain a very informative web site at www.casketstores.com  that has many pages of information the public needs when trying to learn more about this subject, also a bulletin board for those that might want to ask questions or get more feedback, and a store directory.  Going "outside" the regular channels for in depth information on how to save money, who to contact when any abuse might have occurred and reading up on the funeral process, is something everyone should do - and prior to the need to arrange a funeral.

The Senate has conducted two days of hearing in Washington over April 10th & 11th. There were many testimonies of the types of abuse that have happened  in the past. Plus the FTC is considering revision of the funeral rule, and also spoke at the hearing
. The trade has gone through many changes in the last few years - and much of what the public needs to know, has been kept in the dark. The internet has had many new
pages put up on how to plan your funeral on line, how to buy pre need insurance polices and even "casket stores" that are funeral directors selling product to their clients, that get delivered to another mortuary. Many times, the customer is arranging a funeral - at what they think is their neighborhood -long standing reputable named funeral home, when in fact it is owned by one of the largest corporations buying all the Mom & Pop shops they can, and increasing the costs 30% or more. The NCRA would like the public to be informed, and to that end, please ask question after question of the "provider" that you might be seeking services or product of. Know who owns the business, and also, what KEY questions to ask. While it IS  great news the government is looking more in depth of the actions of some of the industry, and trying to protect the public, the bottom line is, those
that are in this trade are  still salespeople, and if you are an uninformed individual,  that is a salesperson's dream. The good in the industry are tarnished for the acts of the dishonest and greedy. Did you know there are MAJOR firms that restrict the wholesale of their caskets and vaults to the retail outlets? Wonder why there would be a need to have a license for an undertaker to sell a grave liner or a hand-crafted wooden casket (or steel, fiberglass)? It is to keep the prices terribly high to the public. If retailers can not get the “goods” they may be forced out of business.  But more and more, the trade is
listening to what the public wants, thanks in part to the Baby Boomers. But  those are just two examples.  The Senate is loking for further comment for a period of 2 weeks, up to April 25th. If you want to write in, the email is: Cecil_Swamidoss@Aging.Senate.Gov
Until a quite few more changes are implemented, it is not a level playing field, and it is not a trade that takes to the public's value of freedom of choice. Visit the NCRA website and learn more.
The National Casket Retailer's Association would also like to welcome  Thema Jaco of PeachTree caskets, as our new secretary.

[ This message was edited on Sat Apr 15 by the author ]


Message cf577c7aLmM-3758-905+00.htm, number 203, was edited on Sun Apr 16 at 07:38:18
A peek at things to come?

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


               US FTC: FTC Testimony on funeral rule review
               activities
               APR 12, 2000, M2 Communications - Testifying today at a
               hearing on the death care industry before the Senate
               Special Committee on Aging, Eileen Harrington of the
               Federal Trade Commission's Bureau of Consumer
               Protection provided an overview of the (full story)

www.dbusiness.com/Story/0,1118,NOCITY_69716,00.html

BUT__>>>>  Senator Grassley invites further input from those that might wish to have a say in all of the issues that they are looking at.
" The record will remain opened for TWO WEEKS  for anyone wishing to add additional
comments."
Only 2 weeks, as of the 11th - Tues, of Apirl. Please note date and act now.
The biggest thing is, there is a great chance that the FTC will place casket stores into the rule. This, most of us, do not have any issue with. HOWEVER, we all need to write in and let them all know We have an issue with the firms that are allowed to restrict their wholesale purchases of caskets or vaults - by  just licensed undertakers"
That is un American, and the idea is only to protect the market for the undertaker. Lets all write in, public and retailers alike, and let them know, they need to stop this
anti competitiveness   where it starts!

Additional comments should be addressed to:

Cecil Z. Swamidoss, Deputy Investigator

Special Committee on Aging

D31 Dirksen Senate Office Building

Washington, DC 20510

FAX: 202-224-8660

E-mail: Cecil_Swamidoss@Aging.Senate.Gov
And it would be even better, if you copy it to the FTC at:
funeral@ftc.gov.
//////And our next press release ///////

Success at selling Caskets & entering the retail funeral trade made very difficult

The National Casket Retailer's Association (NCRA) is made up of devoted owners of casket
stores. It has nothing to do with the teaching of sales technique or the retail end of the business of those members. But what the NCRA does do, is try to make sure that the "field" has a more level and fair competitiveness in the death care industry. They maintain a very informative web site at www.casketstores.com  that has many pages of information the public needs when trying to learn more about this subject, also a bulletin board for those that might want to ask questions or get more feedback, and a store directory.  Going "outside" the regular channels for in depth information on how to save money, who to contact when any abuse might have occurred and reading up on the funeral process, is something everyone should do - and prior to the need to arrange a funeral.

The Senate has conducted two days of hearing in Washington over April 10th & 11th. There were many testimonies of the types of abuse that have happened  in the past. Plus the FTC is considering revision of the funeral rule, and also spoke at the hearing
. The trade has gone through many changes in the last few years - and much of what the public needs to know, has been kept in the dark. The internet has had many new
pages put up on how to plan your funeral on line, how to buy pre need insurance polices and even "casket stores" that are funeral directors selling product to their clients, that get delivered to another mortuary. Many times, the customer is arranging a funeral - at what they think is their neighborhood -long standing reputable named funeral home, when in fact it is owned by one of the largest corporations buying all the Mom & Pop shops they can, and increasing the costs 30% or more. The NCRA would like the public to be informed, and to that end, please ask question after question of the "provider" that you might be seeking services or product of. Know who owns the business, and also, what KEY questions to ask. While it IS  great news the government is looking more in depth of the actions of some of the industry, and trying to protect the public, the bottom line is, those
that are in this trade are  still salespeople, and if you are an uninformed individual,  that is a salesperson's dream. The good in the industry are tarnished for the acts of the dishonest and greedy. Did you know there are MAJOR firms that restrict the wholesale of their caskets and vaults to the retail outlets? Wonder why there would be a need to have a license for an undertaker to sell a grave liner or a hand-crafted wooden casket (or steel, fiberglass)? It is to keep the prices terribly high to the public. If retailers can not get the “goods” they may be forced out of business.  But more and more, the trade is
listening to what the public wants, thanks in part to the Baby Boomers. But  those are just two examples.  The Senate is loking for further comment for a period of 2 weeks, up to April 25th. If you want to write in, the email is: Cecil_Swamidoss@Aging.Senate.Gov
Until a quite few more changes are implemented, it is not a level playing field, and it is not a trade that takes to the public's value of freedom of choice. -- Made difficult yes,  however thousands of thousands of the public have benefited from the lower prices at casket store retailers , the determination and changes in the funeral industry.  Visit the NCRA website and learn more how those and other "tactics" are not working. Most any retailer can get any name brand product, now , from funeral directors (instead of direct from whloesale firm) that are in line with our cause.

The National Casket Retailer's Association would also like to welcome  Thema Jaco of PeachTree caskets, as our new secretary.

[ This message was edited on Sun Apr 16 by the author ]


Message d1990813UHx-3759-1081-00.htm, number 204, was posted on Sun Apr 16 at 18:00:54
wood casket suppliers

Robert Robinson
rsrobins@cin.net


Im in Illinois and looking for suppliers of wood caskets. Plese e-mail me so we can discuss my needs. I need to get this going as soon a possible. Thanks

Message ce9cf221RN9-3760-493+00.htm, number 205, was posted on Mon Apr 17 at 08:13:35
in reply to cf577c7aLmM-3758-905+00.htm

Re: A peek at things to come?

robin
jtbod1@netscape.net



Watch your spelling in press releases -- shoots the credibility right out of 'em.  (I know -- as I lobbied for years)...    "wholesale"

On Sun Apr 16, webmaster wrote
------------------------------
 Visit the NCRA website and learn more how those and other "tactics" are not working. Most any retailer can get any name brand product, now , from funeral directors (instead of direct from whloesale firm) that are in line with our cause.


Message cf568558LmM-3760-1017+00.htm, number 206, was posted on Mon Apr 17 at 16:57:02
in reply to ce9cf221RN9-3760-493+00.htm

Success - press release

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


Thanks for the heads up, it was changed too.
You will find the press release :
Success at selling Caskets & entering the
                       retail funeral trade made very difficult

www.prweb.com/releases/2000/prweb13823.htm

Message cf568658CZt-3762-1223-00.htm, number 207, was posted on Wed Apr 19 at 20:24:11
airtightness test for casket

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


airtightness test for casket (human remains shipped by air, reason for test)
10/1976 report by US Gov. Air Force
Did anyone ever see it?
library.northernlight.com/ZZ19990402020124863.html?cb=0&sc=0#doc

Here is a "true story, chuckle"
www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/91q4/lifetime.html

But, scandles over willed body program too -----copy----
The problems at the University of
    California, Irvine, also prompted a state
    assemblyman to introduce legislation
    making it a crime to return the wrong
    ashes, punishable by a year in jail.

    "There are holes in the law that allowed
    those of unscrupulous nature to profit
    from someone's death," said the bill's
    author Assemblyman Ken Maddox,
    R-Garden Grove.
www.ocregister.com/education/features/1999/uci/
As the public learns about all of the "holes" I can agree with the
hearing that just ended in the Senate. Much more needs to be done -
and while I really feel bad that the whole industry (good & bad) is getting the bad press - until the "good" don't try to HELP level the playing field by allowing (yes, they need to give us permission?)FREE TRADE in all states, and try keeping it a closed market still - they ARE one of the bad guys too. They shouldn't need to keep it a protected market by restricted wholesale purchases, lobbying groups to keep or try to enter slanted state rules and an uneven board to govern the trade. If they could say they didn't agree with the above and try
to assist (out in the open public) then, they should form a new group to stand for that. Then they would get my vote as one of the very good


Message cf577c9fP5m-3764-760-00.htm, number 208, was posted on Fri Apr 21 at 12:40:44
Corpses, Conspiracies and Coroners

George V.
gvict@yahoo.com


Hi Ya All; Everyone have a great Easter weekend. This is some "food for thought" and very interesting.


                    Corpses, Conspiracies and Coroners
FEED magazine's Amanda Griscom talks to forensic pathologist Dr.
Michael Baden about death, justice and the epic glory of guts.

Jan. 27, 2000

                    FEED magazine's Amanda Griscom talks to
                    forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden about
                    death, justice and the epic glory of guts.

www.apbnews.com/crimesolvers/caughtonweb/2000/01/27/baden0127_01.html


Message cf577c9fP5m-3764-778+00.htm, number 209, was posted on Fri Apr 21 at 12:58:13
in reply to c6ea5e6fCZt-3754-1041+00.htm

Report: Funeral Industry Violations Ignored

George V.
gvict@yahoo.com


Report: Funeral Industry Violations Ignored  The date of report goes back one year ago

The lack of adequate oversight, Grassley said, "ought to be disturbing,
particularly when you consider there are 22,300 funeral homes in this
country providing more than 2 million funerals a year."
But GAO said that between 1994 and 1998, the FTC did not check out enough homes -- the
agency test-shopped 958 homes, or 4.3 percent of the country's total --
www.apbnews.com/safetycenter/business/1999/10/22/funeral1022_01.html
But it has many off site links to hearings and how to file complaints. That is the "key" as how things are measured. Look at the math, 239.5 funeral homes "sweep" per year -x4
OUT OF OVER 2 MILLION funerals a year! x4=Over EIGHT million funerals and only 958 checked!


Grieving Families Vulnerable to Funeral Scams
Critics: More Competition Means More Aggressive Marketing
www.apbnews.com/safetycenter/business/2000/04/11/funerals0411_01.html


Message cf577c9fP5m-3764-783+00.htm, number 210, was posted on Fri Apr 21 at 13:02:48
in reply to c6ea5e6fCZt-3754-1041+00.htm

Report: Funeral Industry Violations Ignored

George V.
gvict@yahoo.com


Report: Funeral Industry Violations Ignored  The date of report goes back one year ago

The lack of adequate oversight, Grassley said, "ought to be disturbing,
particularly when you consider there are 22,300 funeral homes in this
country providing more than 2 million funerals a year."
But GAO said that between 1994 and 1998, the FTC did not check out enough homes -- the
agency test-shopped 958 homes, or 4.3 percent of the country's total --
www.apbnews.com/safetycenter/business/1999/10/22/funeral1022_01.html
But it has many off site links to hearings and how to file complaints. That is the "key" as how things are measured. Look at the math, 958 divided by 4 = 239.5 funeral homes "sweep" per year - OUT OF OVER 2 MILLION funerals a year! x4=Over EIGHT million funerals and only 958 checked!


Grieving Families Vulnerable to Funeral Scams
Critics: More Competition Means More Aggressive Marketing
www.apbnews.com/safetycenter/business/2000/04/11/funerals0411_01.html


Message 98a3cccaKyG-3767-1259-00.htm, number 211, was posted on Mon Apr 24 at 20:59:15
Casket store folds up in the night and leaves family in a bind

James Johnston
jj@hotmail.com


A casket store in ohio made a delivery last week and when the family got to the funeral home they realized that the casket store had delivered a cloth covered wood casket instead of the 16 gauge round corner unit they paid $2950 for. The family called the casket store only to discover they had disconnected their phone, They immediatly went to the empty store front where they had bought the casket a day prior. No forwarding info was left? The AG is looking into the matter but this should serve as a reminder of how dangerous these unregulated merchandisers can be!

This message was copied from another board


Message cf5686d0CZt-3768-791+00.htm, number 212, was posted on Tue Apr 25 at 13:13:24
in reply to 98a3cccaKyG-3767-1259-00.htm

Re: Casket store.....

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


On Mon Apr 24, James Johnston wrote
-----------------------------------
>A casket store in ohio made a delivery last week and when the family got to the funeral home they realized that the casket store had delivered a cloth covered wood casket instead of the 16 gauge round corner unit they paid $2950 for.

Well, James, I am in Ohio and I doubt your post is true at all. I follow all of my competition very close - and would have heard of this if indeed it were true. If you can back it up, please do - or else I believe the webmaster should delete it, as it is all lies! Who in their right mind would try to deliver goods that someone paid nearly $3,000. for -with something that costs less than $90.00!!
AS for anyone paying money out to anyone (yes, this includes funeral homes)everyone should always know the firm's background and the saying buying beware always should apply. If something like that ever should happened it would be a gross crime, and yes the crook deserves all of the actions coming to them.
If you can prove this, do it now, if not, don't try to trash or leave
garbage on our board.
On the other hand, I can and will tell you of several funeral homes that have done gross crimes. And I will even try to set you straight about an Ohio c.s. that went out of biz and didn't deliver (for a period of time) some goods that had been paid for. However, if you would like to know, they did refund the money due any of those people due a dime. (That's part of the post I did about 8-9 mos ago)
Too bad you don't leave us any information on yourself, that would have made your post more creditable too. But it is missing too much.... a shot in the dark that deserves to be zapped!


Message cf5686d0CZt-3768-907-00.htm, number 213, was posted on Tue Apr 25 at 15:07:34
funeral abuse.....

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


Consultants
www.funeralabuse.com/index.htm   The site is enough to make you throw up, the things they report. Read about the sums they have won, but I am sure, none getting any of the "award" would have taken it if they could have just "trusted & got what they thought they were paying for" instead.

Message cf5687c7LmM-3771-652-00.htm, number 214, was posted on Fri Apr 28 at 10:52:47
Firms at Death's door

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


Somewhere I read Ms. Kelly of the NFDA said she was not worried about retail casket stores and those lost sales. Not true, if it were, their group would not be putting up such a fuss. Now they are saying, the retail store's growth is slowing down. NOT from where I  sit. I wonder if they are of that old school, say it enough - others might believe it.
And see who else should be concerned about funeral industry Trends. But unlike the above - this is true!


                     Consensus EPS Trend     MoneyCentral

                                    Sectors & Trends
                                    Sickly funeral industry on death's
                                    door


                                    If you're a contrarian investor looking for a beaten-down sector,
                                    tread carefully while considering the business of death

www.moneycentral.com/articles/invest/sectors/4683.asp


Message cdbcc0a6KyG-3772-906-00.htm, number 215, was posted on Sat Apr 29 at 15:06:17
Speaking of firms on deaths door, What ever happened to consumer casket usa?

James Johnston
jj@hotmail.com


anyone know?

who owns what - who will sell? & FROP

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


Elder Davis is owned by York -
IFA’s - acquisition of the business by Hillenbrand Industries - what's up there?
funeral.com had been offered by GreatDomains at auction bid looking for 4.5 million - still there, but now for $80,000.00 some dollars, and the site has a terrible new look (black??), taking orders -to open in the fall??.

Things are getting stirred up badly - and it is NOT over! If you didn't get an email from the webmaster here, and are an NCRA member, please email to request latest one. Questionaire - important, dated and be counted towards some of this industry shake-up! No more - Trickle Down Effects, help make life eaiser.

And our NEWest page is up! The other big problem (aside from what the above Questionare details) I have found thru  many hours of research, is the lack of the public's knowledge of FROP - or even the funeral rule, which I knew, but found out there is a huge gap in the lack of much information about it on the web!. Please check out www.burialitems.com/Orders.html
and see what I mean. Also, if you carry any of it over to your site, I won't mind - more people need to know what the h-e-doubletoothpick
frop is! Detail it at least, on your web site and in your informational  items. If you are not aware of what it is, please check out the web page here (alerts, hot button at the bottom of this page) I was selling caskets for nearly a year before I even ever heard of it! If you put up the details of what the funeral rule offender's program is, on your web page, let me know would you? The search engines couldn't find only but 16 sites that mentioned it at all ;-(


[ This message was edited on Mon May 1 by the author ]


Message ce9cf221RN9-3775-506+00.htm, number 217, was posted on Tue May 2 at 08:26:33
in reply to cf5686e0CZt-3774-101+00.htm

Re: who owns what - who will sell? & FROP

robin
jtbod1@netscape.net


On Mon May 1, savcash wrote
---------------------------
>Elder Davis is owned by York -
>IFA’s - acquisition of the business by Hillenbrand Industries - what's up there?

Betty:  Information and History

1).  Many more operations than Elder Davis are owned by York Group:
LIST OF SUBSIDIARIES OF
                             THE YORK GROUP, INC.

                SUBSIDIARY                            STATE OF INCORPORATION
                ----------                            ----------------------
Cercueil Lauzie re Inc...............................  New Brunswick, Canada
Sheidow Bronze Corporation...........................  West Virginia
Colonial Guild Trade Company, Inc....................  Delaware
Dixie Vault Company, Inc.............................  Alabama
Dixie Vault Trade Company, Inc.......................  Delaware
Doody Trade Company, Inc.............................  Delaware
Elder Davis, Inc.....................................  Indiana
Elder Davis Trade Company, Inc.......................  Delaware
OMC Industries, Inc..................................  Texas
Puget Sound Casket Co................................  Washington
Star Manufacturing Corporation.......................  Indiana
The Doody Group, Inc.................................  Delaware
The York Children's Foundation.......................  Texas
T.Y.G. Company, Inc..................................  Delaware
T.Y.G. Trade Company, Inc............................  Delaware
T.Y.G. Trade II Company, Inc.........................  Delaware
West Point Casket Company............................  Delaware
West Point Trade Company, Inc........................  Delaware
York Agency, Inc.....................................  Delaware
York Acquisition Corp................................  Delaware
York Bronze Company..................................  Delaware

...to start with.  What is your point?  Elder Davis, as you know, includes a fine line of cremation caskets, but, arguably, the low-end portion of the entire York line.  Acquired in the late summer of 1997, the Davis' remain on the York board of directors.  This "line" is probably the least of your (competitive) worries.

2).  IFA (International Funeral Associates) was acquired by HB last year.  The independent alliance acted as a buying group with also some ancillary services such as insurance products, answering services, and other usual "group" association things.  Once owned by York, it had been under the auspices of American Annuity Group's funeral division. When Service Corp bought that division (for the preneed contracts) they obtained an independent group which obviously was competitive to their publicly traded funeral homes.  Hence, it was sold to Batesville casket's parent, Hillenbrand.  However, as BCC supplies the majority of the caskets to the publicly traded funeral homes under lucrative discount/contract pricing, the IFA never was really accepted.  Most inde's obtained from the sales reps discount and rebate packages that were similar in scope.  BCC was more interested in same facility increases (either in % of the stock of caskets on the floor) or in calls.  In any case, the IFA thing did not work.  It's operations are basically shut down.  It is unlikely that the IFA, which has a pretty decent and respectful past, will ever be "activated" again.  You might see Batesville use an outside group in the future to operate an independent group...but never again (me thinks) from an internal program.  Too much conflict.  They actually increased margins this year on caskets (look at the annual report on freeedgar.com) but have lost many independent funeral homes who believe the discounts afforded to the chains are unfair to them, BCC's largest customers (about 65-70% are independent); hence they believe they are subsidizing the corporation with their higher wholesale prices.

Hope this helps you and the retail owners as to what all of this is about.
But....Again, what was your point?  

Robin


Message cf568523LmM-3775-711-00.htm, number 218, was posted on Tue May 2 at 11:51:24
Death & Dying poll from About.com on funeral directors

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


As I post this, the score from the one of three polls / this one is on - Are funeral directors honest? is 8 votes yes, 5 votes dishonest (so I hope some funeral directors are reading this to prevent it from getting more bad than good, because it could go either way at this point)
And the preneed - reliable & good is 4 votes, while unreliable got 5 votes.

dying.about.com/health/dying/blfunpoll1.htm

Useful links
dying.about.com/health/dying/library/weekly/mpreviss.htm

And reading all about  " Funeral Industry fights back" concerning what they feel about the Senate's recent "unfair" hearings
dying.about.com/health/dying/library/weekly/aa041700b.htm?rnk=r&terms=senate+hearings
(But then, the funeral trade sure didn't like the AARP report last month on the "RIP OFF" article either - wonder how so many see such negative things, yet the NFDA blasts them all?) That therein lies the problem - if they could admit that there are many that are not upholding the high ethics they say that they strive for, and get rid of them, then maybe all the bad press would stop. AND that is why there is such a need for the NCRA and others, to inform the public instead of saying it is all well and good. People still need to hold onto their wallets, and the NFDA needs to get their head out of the sand.
And the list from About com on funerals
dying.about.com/health/dying/msub8.htm


Message cf568523LmM-3775-738+00.htm, number 219, was posted on Tue May 2 at 12:18:35
in reply to cdbcc0a6KyG-3772-906-00.htm

Re: Speaking of firms on deaths door, What ever happened to consumer casket usa?

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


On Sat Apr 29, James Johnston wrote
-----------------------------------
>anyone know?
Hello James, Nope, can't say I've heard anything either. And still finding the FTC news being talked about (another hearing?)www.kates-boylston.com/ftcnews.html

It is time to open up long-standing government-created cartels that prevent industrious individuals
from earning an honest living and that force consumers to pay more than a fair price--one determined
by freely acting buyers and sellers--for products and services.  

For more information: Barriers to Entrepreneurship. Small businesses are key to job
creation--and they are the most affected by red tape. (Institute for Policy Innovation, July 1999,
www.heartland.org/ia/novdec99/law.htm
They could have met resistance like above.


Message ce9cf221RN9-3775-958+00.htm, number 220, was posted on Tue May 2 at 15:58:23 Re^2: who owns what - who will sell? & FROP

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


On Tue May 2, robin wrote
-------------------------
The point of the who owns/who will sell - if I own a firm, (as you
note by your visit to my link below - even if that firm has different divisions, the parent name of the org. is - and always should be named. If I were a retailer and didn't think York would sell to me -
because of hearsay, I wouldn't even bother calling them and wasting my time, nor would I want to spend my money with a firm that played those kinds of games against fair and open trade. So, if Elder is owned by York, if I were in the market for some of their style caskets, I would not again, wish to buy their goods. (Like I don't do biz with firms that sell/ assoc. or back porn either ;-)It is against the grain of my beliefs to help make money for those that do low things.

>>www.burialitems.com/Orders.html

>Betty - I checked out that link and

>UUUGGGHHHHH!!!!!  Who in the heck is doing your website?  I showed it to ten people and all had that greenish deathly look.   It's not the content; it's the seven different fonts, fourteen different colors, six varieties of spacing, three options of bold...and that's all within one paragraph!

>It is un-readable.  Period.  End of Story.

>I am going to have a web-developer that I know very well call you.  You will be offered the service "at cost" -- I promise..no mark-up...just the equivalent wages of what the person earns per hour.  

>Trust me (and others have been too nice to tell you)...the site is asking readers to have a headache and is really butt-ugly (as we used to say).  I'll read the content after you consider the fix.

>Pal Robin

Well,,, I put up the link prior to all of the finish work - I want to view it with other browsers, which do you use?? And you do sound a bit like one of my favorite relatives HOWEVER their very worst habit is
s-t-r-e-c-h-i-n-g the truth a bit. The only colors used on the whole site (not in the 1st par) totaled - brown, black, red, blue & the color I wanted to perhaps change, after looking at it from more than one browsers, the lavender (and not counting the light/dark or rather bold variations of those colors or the unvistited link or visited link colors)
Thats five -5- colors (if we count the link colors (2) and the lt/bold
of the brown, black, red & blue - which you shouldn't really, that's
5 more = 7 there, so thats 12 colors on the whole site for the text-
doing a double check, I find one more (one sentence in green) so over all the site I get 13 colors - what browser are you using??? But I'm glad you're reading and showing people (will fix some tho, thanks for the input) but don't have your buddy call, I really don't want a page that looks like those run of the mill, where you can't remember anything dif/about it to set it apart from the others.

Thanks too for the run down on the other own/sell - you sure know a lot about the trade (are you not an outsider to it?) Let me ask one more question of you about it - ever heard of the  NSM Purchasing
Association? Or know any thing at all about it? Owners - location
ect? All I could find on it were the total of 865 membership.


Message 98a3c942z5a-3776-337-00.htm, number 222, was posted on Wed May 3 at 05:37:05
ROBIN

competitive caskets inc.
jjjgjs@aol.com


PLEASE COME TO WORK WITH ME!  GEORGE

Message ce9cf221RN9-3776-492-00.htm, number 223, was posted on Wed May 3 at 08:14:09
Answer to NSM Question for B.

robin
jtbod1@netscape.net


>>Thanks too for the run down on the other own/sell - you sure know a lot about the trade (are you not an outsider to it?) Let me ask one more question of you about it - ever heard of the  NSM Purchasing Association? Or know any thing at all about it? Owners - location
ect? All I could find on it were the total of 865 membership.>>

All the stuff I comment upon is generally public information.  As an investor, I use the Edgar service.  This is the SEC document site for any publicly traded company.  So, when you asked about YRKG subsidiaries, I simply clicked on Edgar, searched for the latest 10-K (annual report) and used my Edit key on Netscape (to answer your previous question re the browser) to "find" the word "subsidiaries".  I could have used Elder.  A quick copy and paste to this board, and all is done.  So, that's not too hard.  The IFA stuff came from the HB info, as well as a few phone calls from ex-subscribers to the association for other reasons.

Now, the reason you got confused with "NSM Purchasing Association" is that it sounds like an outside group that bulk buys product.  It is not.  It is simply the National Select Morticians, a dues paying group of independents, similar to the Order of the Golden Rule. They have certain standards, including credit/background checks on the FD and his facility, and operate internationally.  Purportedly, they are inde. funeral homes that have minimal risk to the clients about fair pricing, presentation of the GPL, and so on.  Like OGR, if they get in trouble, they may lose their affiliation. www.nsm.org/

In any case, the NSM, like other groups or associations, desired the efficiencies (and profitability) of group purchasing of their caskets and other products.  Because they are all independent of each other, there was concern within the group of an anti-trust problem if they were to receive, essentially, "price-fixed" product.  So, they did the right thing as far as the law is concerned, and contacted the feds for a review of the applicability of the Sherman (anti-trust) act.  They received a positive response, and actually made quite a big deal out of it.  Their press release can be found somewhere on the Internet; you'll have to search for it or I will later.  Something to the effect of "NSM receives governmental waiver of anti-trust provision, allowing NSM funeral homes to obtain group (discount) pricing"...and so on....suggesting that they may be able to offer better pricing to their clients.  (Also, you should subscribe tothe mortuary publications...they always have "inside" info and press releases.)  

Now, in the real world this was a bunch of hype.  Almost anyone can form a GPO and, under the auspices of an association, obtain group pricing.  It's the norm in pharmacy and healthcare.  Only stupid independents do not belong to an industry buying group.  

Your number of 850 or some sounds about right.  That would be about 5-6% of the total active independent funeral homes.  (Of the 21,000 or so, many are publicly owned).  Because this is a relatively large amount, I see why they went through the anti-trust thing, but, again, any group can basically do the same.  BTW, they purchase from one of the "Big 3" plus a few of the regional manufacturers.

Last, to the post below, I'm not in the market for a new job, but thanks.

Robin.

PS to B:  I wasn't being nasty about the look of your site, but I repeat, it is too convoluted.  Consider second (and third) opinions!


Message cf577cbcCZt-3776-607+00.htm, number 224, was posted on Wed May 3 at 10:07:29
in reply to ce9cf221RN9-3776-492-00.htm

NSM members

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


>Now, the reason you got confused with "NSM Purchasing Association" is that it sounds like an outside group that bulk buys product.  It is not.  It is simply the National Select Morticians, a dues paying group of independents, similar to the Order of the Golden Rule. They have certain standards, including credit/background checks on the FD and his facility, and operate internationally.  Purportedly, they are inde. funeral homes that have minimal risk to the clients about fair pricing, presentation of the GPL, and so on.  Like OGR, if they get in trouble, they may lose their affiliation. www.nsm.org/

>In any case, the NSM, like other groups or associations, desired the efficiencies (and profitability) of group purchasing of their caskets and other products.  Because they are all independent of each other, there was concern within the group of an anti-trust problem if they were to receive, essentially, "price-fixed" product.  So, they did the right thing as far as the law is concerned, and contacted the feds for a review of the applicability of the Sherman (anti-trust) act.  They received a positive response, and actually made quite a big deal out of it.  Their press release can be found somewhere on the Internet; you'll have to search for it or I will later.  Something to the effect of "NSM receives governmental waiver of anti-trust provision, allowing NSM funeral homes to obtain group (discount) pricing"...and so on....suggesting that they may be able to offer better pricing to their clients.  (Also, you should subscribe tothe mortuary publications...they always have "inside" info and press releases.)  

>Now, in the real world this was a bunch of hype.  Almost anyone can form a GPO and, under the auspices of an association, obtain group pricing.  It's the norm in pharmacy and healthcare.  Only stupid independents do not belong to an industry buying group.  

>Your number of 850 or some sounds about right.  That would be about 5-6% of the total active independent funeral homes.  (Of the 21,000 or so, many are publicly owned).  Because this is a relatively large amount, I see why they went through the anti-trust thing, but, again, any group can basically do the same.  BTW, they purchase from one of the "Big 3" plus a few of the regional manufacturers.

>Last, to the post below, I'm not in the market for a new job, but thanks.
----if you were in the field of morticians, you would be outstanding;-) because you don't skim on the just the surface.
>Robin.


---That org. seems more committed to the following of the FTC rule than the NFDA and I checked to see how many local biz there were, quite a few we have serviced product for ;-)and no hassle. But the one f.h. that still leaves a sour pit in my stomach wasn't on the list. If they were (were the guy acted like a used car salesman and reduced the price to meet mine) the sincerity of the site - gave me a little hope -such that I would have wrote to them to expose to them that their member is not upstanding. I bookmarked it and will see if ever I have the need to complain to them about any of their members, just to see if indeed, I get any response that seems in line with the site. And if keeping track now, I will also let them know if I see any dif/in doing biz with their members compared to those of just the NFDA and will compliment them there on that, if that is the case.
But, they don't promote themselves nothing like the NFDA does, for the public to be made aware much of a comparison or change. And no where on the site was any offer of a publication (so I asked)
---If I had to guess which of the "big three" it would be - I'd say
York - Batesville no - they have been called tradiors (sp?) now and I even hear news that they are now going to open a shop in Mexico. Ugh-
and sell Americans, wonder if they will promote that news? More of what's wrong with them - sure bet they don't. And I don't know if A. would be it, don't hear much of them. But indeed I do wonder how much of a discount that the group gets over those non members you talked about, on a cost of the wholesale casket??


Message cf56854fCZt-3779-484-00.htm, number 225, was posted on Sat May 6 at 08:04:40
you can't take it with you ;-)

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


To brighten a day with a smile ....

Sorry, but you can't take your wealth with you
==============================================

There once was a rich man who was near death. He was very
grieved because he had worked so hard for his money and he
wanted to be able to take it with him to heaven. So he began
to pray that he might be able to take some of his wealth
with him.

An angel hears his plea and appears to him. "Sorry, but you
can't take your wealth with you." The man implores the angel
to speak to God to see if He might bend the rules.

The man continues to pray that his wealth could follow him.
The angel reappears and informs the man that God has decided
to allow him to take one suitcase with him. Overjoyed, the
man gathers his largest suitcase and fills it with pure gold
bars and places it beside his bed.

Soon afterward he dies and shows up at the Gates of Heaven to
greet St. Peter.  St. Peter seeing the suitcase says, "Hold
on, you can't bring that in here!"

But, the man explains to St. Peter that he has permission and
asks him to verify his story with the Lord. Sure enough, St.
Peter checks and comes back saying, "You're right. You are
allowed one carry-on bag, but I'm supposed to check its
contents before letting it through."

St. Peter opens the suitcase to inspect the worldly items that
the man found too precious to leave behind and exclaims, "You
brought pavement?"

Submitted by Dag Frode

Send your favorite jokes to jokes@inc.HumorShack.com
________________________________________________________


Message 98a3c5c4yLQ-3782-918-00.htm, number 226, was posted on Tue May 9 at 15:20:18
New Kid on the Block

The Casket Shoppe
necgroup@aol.com


Hi All,
My wife and I opened The Casket Shoppe 2 months ago in Toms River NJ.and while business is slow to start (holding our breath)we have one Independant who is going through great length to discredit Casket Retailers. My wife went to his home as a possible pre-need and received two price list. One dated 6-15-98 and the other dated 4-1-00 much to our suprise the most recent was a close copy of ours with prices within $100 of ours. It look like he's using one list if his clients are aware of us and one if their not. This guy is also telling people we're selling generic caskets. Any suggestions?
Also, any marketing tips.
Thanks, Mike  

Message cf577ca9CZt-3783-508+00.htm, number 227, was posted on Wed May 10 at 08:28:10
in reply to 98a3c5c4yLQ-3782-918-00.htm

Re: New Kid on the Block

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


On Tue May 9, The Casket Shoppe wrote
-------------------------------------
>Hi All,
>My wife and I opened The Casket Shoppe 2 months ago in Toms River NJ.and while business is slow to start (holding our breath)we have one Independant who is going through great length to discredit Casket Retailers. My wife went to his home as a possible pre-need and received two price list. One dated 6-15-98 and the other dated 4-1-00 much to our suprise the most recent was a close copy of ours with prices within $100 of ours. It look like he's using one list if his clients are aware of us and one if their not.
---Hi, and hope you have stick-to-itness, and advertising is the key.
About this guy, what a shame. If he can get away with it, he won't stop......a few calls to the right people......
> This guy is also telling people we're selling generic caskets. Any suggestions? Did you hear this from more than one person??I'd send him a certified letter demanding that he stop, and if he persits, you WILL
see to it that his association, a judge and more hear about his attempt to slander you. (get proof, names, etc. and send that too. If you have a recording, even better.) Guar. he will stop if he is any smart man. With that letter I'd let him know that professionals needn't act that way and you're willing to try to get a long, if he will. The industry gets enough bad press and you sure don't want to add to it.
>Also, any marketing tips.
>Thanks, Mike  
--again Welcome, and you know what they say about pioneers....they always get alot of arrows in the back.
Here is a pc I swiped from Ender on another board...
An interesting story.....Fighting for the Last Word
www.newsweek.com/nw-srv/printed/us/dept/lw/a19571-2000may7.htm

Message cdbcc0b6z5a-3783-1012-00.htm, number 228, was posted on Wed May 10 at 16:53:54
new kid and wife

competitive caskets inc.
jjjgjs@aol.com


IT IS NOT EASY! HI FROM COMPETITIVE CASKETS INC. IN CLIFTON ,N.J.
FIRST I HOPE YOU JOIN NCRA....EACH NEW STORE GIVES US MORE POWER!!!ALSO IF U ARE NOT A MEMEBER YET- EMAIL WEBMASTER-ROB AND FILL OUT THE QUESTIONARIE AND RETURN IT FAST!!!!THEY ARE LOOKING FOR MORE INFO ON THESE GREAT (HA HA) FUNERAL DIRECTORS!there are some good ones!please call me i have some  thoughts to help YOU!......but any time and i mean and time, funeral home gives YOU bull, call up MR. BRUSH- HE IS THE EX.DIRECTOR OF THE STATE BOARD OF MORTUARY SCIENCE IN NEWARK...973-504-6425..TELL I SENT YOU TO HIM!!!!!!GEORGE COMPETITIVE CASKETS

Message 3f0f8eceCen-3785-1133-00.htm, number 229, was posted on Fri May 12 at 18:55:31
Need help from any NFDA member.

RJohnson
robert_r_johnson@msn.com



   I have been a consumer of funeral services during the past year.  As a consumer, I traveled to Washington, D.C. to attend the U.S. Senate Special Committee on Aging's hearing on Funerals and Burials:  Protecting Consumers from Bad Practices.  I sat in on the entire proceedings over both days.

   I also submitted comments to the Committee on my understanding of the extent of the FTC's enforcement of the Funeral Rule, and aspects of the Funeral Offenders Program as administered by the National Funeral Directors Association.

   The Aging Committee hearing was obviously related to the Federal Trade Commission's ongoing reassessment of its Funeral Rule.  The FTC, after soliciting and receiving public comments last summer, is expected to announce in the near future whether it will recommend any changes to the Funeral Rule.

    I am interested in following the process.  The NFDA web site, NFDA.ORG, lists the following report, Aging Committee After-Action Report, however, it is restricted to NFDA members only.  Could some NFDA member download the report and either post it on Ceilidh or email it to me at MotheFacts@hotmail.com.  The address for the report is www.nfda.org/memberpage/govrel/aging.html.

   I am trying to gain any insight I can into the manner of federal regulation the funeral industry.  I thank you for your assistance.

       RJohnson
 


Message cf568794LmM-3785-1140-00.htm, number 230, was posted on Fri May 12 at 18:59:49
For Mom

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


My Mother

When I was a child, you held me tight.
You calmed my fears late at night.
You tucked me in, with a tender kiss
and prayed with me with me without a miss.

I watched you work, and loved you so.
You watched with patience, and let me grow.
Making mistakes here and there,
YOu offered help with loving care.

But the time of separation came.
Joy for me, not sensing your pain.
Separation from mother, like a birthing moan,
But this time mother, after the pain, is alone.
With no little child to hold to her breast,
To make the pain worthwhile, and feel wonderfully blessed.

You could only watch, to see how you'd done.
As I make my home caring for each daughter and son.
You made me feel proud, and helped when you could,
But your job was done, and we both understood.

Now times have changed, the years gone by.
Our roles reversed, you and I.
I calm your fears and hold you tight,
And come when you call, late at night.

My love for you has no end,
As did your love for me.
It doesn't stop, has no bounds,
It's like the endless sea.

My wave of love engulfs you now,
As with nuturing care and discern;
I pray for you, and hold your hand,
With patience and concern.

We have a bond and will never part,
A love that flows between our hearts,
So when seperation time comes again,
It will be me, that bears the pain.
But I'll dry the tears and with a kiss,
   I'll gently tuck you in.

           From friend at church, MaryAnn, to her Mom

Please take the time to tell her you love her, no matter where you are, how long it has been, or whatever the riff, if any - life is really so short.

To my Mom, Thanks (don't worry, you did a good job) & I love you!


Message 98a3ccc4DIr-3789-1317-00.htm, number 231, was posted on Tue May 16 at 21:56:36
XXXXXXXXx are kinda like cockaroaches

Jane Doe


You try to keep them out but they invade anyway!  And they are filthy!

Message cc601834PRl-3789-1413+00.htm, number 232, was posted on Tue May 16 at 23:33:34
in reply to 98a3ccc4DIr-3789-1317-00.htm

Re: Mxxxxxxxns are kinda like cockaroaches

De'Lores P. Arline
delarl@usa.net


On Tue May 16, Jane Doe wrote
-----------------------------
It's awful to think that people like you have the capacity to reproduce.

>You try to keep them out but they invade anyway!  And they are filthy!


Message 98a3ccc4DIr-3789-1317+00.htm, number 231, was edited on Wed May 17 at 00:37:35
and replaces message 98a3ccc4DIr-3789-1317-00.htm

(snip) are kinda like (snip)

Jane Doe


>You try to keep (snip)

(The post was a waste of time by (snip))

[ This message was edited on Wed May 17 by webmaster ]


Message cc601834PRl-3789-1413+00.htm, number 232, was edited on Wed May 17 at 00:45:18
Re: are kinda like

De'Lores P. Arline
delarl@usa.net


On Tue May 16, Jane Doe wrote
-----------------------------
It's awful to think that people like you have the capacity to reproduce.

>You try to keep
(Note: webmaster (snipped) -and this reply is being too kind. I wouldn't have considered the poster a person, but rather much a cowardly twit.)

[ This message was edited on Wed May 17 by webmaster ]


Message cf24ef4bImK-3791-495-00.htm, number 233, was posted on Thu May 18 at 08:14:39
New To Biz! Batesville vs Dot-Com

ValDan
oldeworldcasket@aol.com


Hello!

We are just entering this business and have an interesting story to tell - hopefully someone here may be able to shed some light on this. In our endeavor to "start-up" our business, we began contacting casket manufacturers, of course one of these was Batesville Casket Company. The response we received from Batesville is quoted as follows:

 "At the present time, we sell and distribute our caskets only through licensed funeral directors operating licensed funeral firms.If you meet these requirements, we will be happy to send a sales representative to visit with you.Let us know!"

Our follow up was a request for an official response from Batesville as to why an e-commerce company (www.Webcaskets.com) is prominently displaying the official Batesville trademark as well as the Batesville product line when they emphatically make the following public disclosure statement on their website:

'...WebCaskets.com is not owned by, associated or affliated with any funeral homes or funeral home companies in any capacity.'

We notice that WebCaskets.com is advertising on this bulletinboard - perhaps someone has some "inside information" as to how they were able to accomplish acquiring the Batesvile line?

Also, does anyone have any information on CasketRoyale? We're considering them as a supplier - are they reputable, has anyone had any experience with them? Any suggestions for our start-up would be most welcomed and appreciated!

We appreciate the presence of this forum and look forward to becoming active members. Thanks!

Dan & Val - Fort Lauderdale, Florida


Message cf577c5aCZt-3791-709+00.htm, number 234, was posted on Thu May 18 at 11:49:31
in reply to cf24ef4bImK-3791-495-00.htm

News to use...

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


On Thu May 18, ValDan wrote
---------------------------
>Hello!
-----Hi, Glad to meet ya ;-0
>We are just entering this business and have an interesting story to tell - hopefully someone here may be able to shed some light on this. In our endeavor to "start-up" our business, we began contacting casket manufacturers, of course one of these was Batesville Casket Company. The response we received from Batesville is quoted as follows:

>  "At the present time, we sell and distribute our caskets only through licensed funeral directors operating licensed funeral firms.If you meet these requirements, we will be happy to send a sales representative to visit with you.Let us know!"

>Our follow up was a request for an official response from Batesville as to why an e-commerce company ---
-----Most any retailer can get most any product, from others in the
field. At an added broker fee, retailers still beat the cost of the
same unit, from that funeral director! If you work on some
arrangements, you can too ;-) (But that product is over-rated, overpriced and with their restrictions, the last one I offer. I have
sold Batesville, but what for?? There are so many other units that
look and cost more what the client needs)
The web site gets its images/logos from a licensed f.d. and with
the statement, is okay to sell.   Don't you just love the answer
from Batesville, "at the present time"  what is that , a tease??
Ha, of course they'd like to think it is cast in stone, but I will
bet you good money, they will not be "permitted" to - forever - even
just under 3 yrs. If you get an answer to your letters, let us know.
(And to be sure, Batesville is counting the requests they get from casket stores. Keep your response - so you can have the last laugh)
>Also, does anyone have any information on CasketRoyale? We're considering them as a supplier - are they reputable, has anyone had any experience with them? Any suggestions for our start-up would be most welcomed and appreciated!
-----Yep, one should always have more that one source. They are fine-
Are you selling more woods or steel? No one much in the group (and you sure can't blame them) releases the names of the suppliers they have.
At least not on a bb. But we're a friendly group and share alot with friends ;-)  Glad to have you aboard.

Here is a link that is interesting
nbcin.nbc5.com/tvsd/inside/news/funerals.shtml
and shows why we are needed so!

Lowen Group -
(copy)Loewen Group, the world's #2 funeral services company,
                    behind Service Corporation International (SCI), once
                    would have loved to cremate SCI, but now it urns only to
                    survive. The company owns or operates more than 1,100
                    funeral homes and more than 400 cemeteries in the US,
                    Canada, and the UK. Most of its sales come from funeral
                    services, which include collection of remains, death
                    registration, embalming, and caskets. Loewen has grown
                    through acquisitions, buying funeral homes in clusters or
                    in one geographic area and preserving their local
                    identities. However, the acquisitions have overwhelmed
                    Loewen with debt; it has sought bankruptcy protection
                    and is selling several hundred funeral home and
                    cemetery locations
www.loewen.ca/home.nsf/public/2000MAY01


Message cf248716ImK-3791-997-00.htm, number 235, was posted on Thu May 18 at 16:37:15
Afterthoughts: BUYERS GROUP POSSIBILITIES?

ValDan
oldeworldcasket@aol.com


Just an afterthought to our previous post as one of us has a very indepth background in Retail Advertising & Marketing...

Has anyone here considered the possibilities of forming a Buyers Group? There's certainly strength in numbers - not to mention margin!

Message cf577c8aCZt-3792-524+00.htm, number 237, was posted on Fri May 19 at 08:49:55
in reply to 98a3ccc0S0U-3791-1175+00.htm

action....

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


Well, now I've had my good laugh of the morning!!! (You can tell thats from our compitition, who just now is waking up and see that we are indeed, compitition ;-)But that's not funny if that is how they think we do it, or if that is how they do it - how sad.
Bear with me and see where I am going with this.....
Have you seen this link?

www.wvfda.org/news1998.htm

And now, for more grins, this is how I see us, the third party retailer and the funeral industry, trying to put us out (but it ain't working! Well, for the most part, there have been a few loses...._
www.history.ohio-state.edu/projects/uscartoons/gapecartoons/DemocracyAntiTrustFlame.htm
Anti-trust is good, but it doesn't go far enough concerning us, just yet anyway.
The start of gaining level ground in that respect
acra.org/board/?topic=topic1&msg=22

Those that think it (anti-trust) is hurting no one (but are about to wake up if I have my way)and have used it to their advantage. (In answer to your question,) it has been done, from our compitition.
(copy)View the corresponding press release



January 13, 1999


Michael P.A. Cohen, Esq.
Howrey & Simon
1299 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20004-2402

Dear Mr. Cohen:

This is in response to your request on behalf of the NSM Purchasing
Association ("the
Association") for the issuance of a business review letter pursuant
to the Department of Justice's
Business Review Procedure, 28 C.F.R. § 50.6. You have requested a
statement of the Department of
Justice's antitrust enforcement intentions with respect to a proposal
to establish the Association as a
joint purchasing agent for privately-owned funeral homes.

NSM is a trade association of some 865 privately-owned funeral homes
who account for 6.3
percent of funeral home locations in the United States. It seeks to
form a joint purchasing entity that
would aggregate the casket purchases of NSM's members so that they
could obtain the type of
quantity discounts (up to 40 percent) that you say the casket
manufacturers are currently offering to the
larger corporate providers of funeral services.

Your application asserts that independent family-owned funeral homes
have faced increased price
competition in recent years as a result of several different trends.
The most important, you suggest, has
been acquisition consolidation that has allowed the largest corporate
funeral service providers to reduce
their cost structures by obtaining purchasing discounts and other
economies of scale and scope. In
addition, you note that during the 1990s the family-owned funeral
homes have also faced significant
pricing pressures because of the increased use of crematoria. Between
1990 and 1995 the share of
total funeral services provided by cremation rather than traditional
burial increased from 17 percent to
21 percent, in large part because of the former's significantly lower
costs.

Finally, you indicate that competition in the funeral service
business has been increased by new
entry from cemeteries and direct selling casket retailers.

The proposal to establish the NSM Purchasing Association is designed
to allow NSM's members
to pool their casket purchases so that they can obtain the volume
discounts of up to 40 percent that you
say are currently available to their larger rivals. This reduction in
their casket purchase costs would
allow NSM's members to compete more effectively for price-sensitive
customers since casket costs
accounted for 16.91 percent of an adult funeral's cost in 1997.

The proposed joint purchasing entity will be operated in a manner
designed to reduce competitive
risk. Its business will be conducted by a full-time buying agent and
staff that are not employed by NSM
or any member thereof. The independent buying agent will keep all
competitively sensitive information
confidential, i.e., it will not disseminate any such information
among its members. Use of the joint
purchasing agent will be available to any family or privately-owned
funeral home in the United States,
not just to NSM members. It will not be available, however, to the
large corporate funeral service
providers who already are getting the large volume discounts that are
the goal of the joint purchasing
arrangement. The Constitution and By-Laws of the Association will cap
membership to prevent it from
exceeding 35 percent of United States casket purchases. Members will
remain free to purchase outside
of the joint venture. Legal counsel will be present at all meetings
of the joint venture and acceptance of
an antitrust compliance policy will be a condition of membership in
the joint venture.

On the basis of the information and assurances that you have provided
us, it does not appear that
the Association's joint purchasing proposal is likely to have an
anticompetitive effect in either the casket
or funeral services market. The relatively small share of casket
purchases accounted for by NSM's
members, the ratio of casket costs to funeral service prices, and the
prophylactic measures that will be
adopted to reduce antitrust risk lead us to conclude that NSM's
proposal should not harm any seller or
consumer interest. Moreover, to the extent that the proposed joint
purchasing reduces NSM members'
costs and such savings are shared with consumers, the proposal could
have a procompetitive effect.

For these reasons, the Department is not presently inclined to
initiate antitrust enforcement action
against NSM's proposal. This letter, however, expresses the
Department's current enforcement
intention. In accordance with our normal practices, the Department
reserves the right to bring any
enforcement action in the future if the actual operation of the
proposed joint purchasing program proves
to be anticompetitive in any purpose or effect.

This statement is made in accordance with the Department's Business
Review Procedure, 28
C.F.R. § 50.6. Pursuant to its terms, your business review request
and this letter will be made publicly
available immediately, and any supporting data will be made publicly
available within 30 days of the
date of this letter, unless you request that part of the material be
withheld in accordance with Paragraph
10(c) of the Business Review Procedure.

Sincerely,


____________/s/______________
JOEL I. KLEIN
Assistant Attorney General

And a copy of the press release - -------
Download the WP 5.1 version

View the corresponding business review



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 13, 1999
WWW.USDOJ.GOV/ATR
AT
(202) 616-2771
TDD: (202) 514-1888


JUSTICE DEPARTMENT APPROVES PROPOSAL BY PRIVATELY-OWNED
FUNERAL HOMES TO ENGAGE IN JOINT PURCHASING OF CASKETS


WASHINGTON, D.C. -- The Department of Justice today approved a
proposal by NSM, a
trade association of 865 privately-owned funeral homes, that would
allow it to engage in the joint
purchasing of caskets.

In a business review letter issued by Joel I. Klein, Assistant
Attorney General in charge of the
Antitrust Division, the Department stated that NSM's proposal should
not harm any seller or
consumer because NSM members purchase a relatively small share of
caskets, the cost of caskets
are a fraction of overall funeral service prices, and NSM will be
adopting measures to reduce
antitrust risk.

According to NSM, independent family-owned funeral homes have faced
increased price
competition in recent years as a result of acquisition consolidation,
increased use of crematoria, and
new entry from cemeteries and direct selling casket retailers. The
proposed NSM Purchasing
Association would allow NSM members to pool their casket purchases so
that they can obtain the
type of quantity discounts that are said to be offered by casket
manufacturers to the larger
corporate providers of funeral services. Reduction in the casket
purchase costs would allow
NSM's members to compete more effectively for price sensitive
customers.

The proposed joint purchasing entity would be operated in a manner
designed to reduce
competitive risk. Its business operations would be conducted by a
full-time buying agent and

staff that are not employed by or members of NSM. The independent
buying agent would keep all
competitively sensitive information confidential, and would not
disseminate any such information
among the members. Use of the joint purchasing agent would be
available to other family or
privately-owned funeral homes in the United States, not just to NSM
members, and members
would remain free to purchase caskets outside of the joint venture.

The Constitution and By-Laws of the Association will cap membership
to prevent it from exceeding
35 percent of United States casket purchases. Legal counsel will be
present at all meetings of the
joint venture and acceptance of an antitrust compliance policy will
be a condition of membership in
the joint venture.

NSM accounts for 6.3 percent of funeral home locations in the United
States. In 1997, casket
costs accounted for 16.91 percent of the cost of an adult funeral.

Under the Department's Business Review Procedure, an organization may
submit a proposed
action to the Antitrust Division and receive a statement as to
whether the Division will challenge the
action under the antitrust laws.

A file containing the business review request and the Department's
response may be examined in
the Antitrust Documents Group of the Antitrust Division, Suite 215,
Liberty Place, 325 7th Street,
N.W., Department of Justice, Washington, D.C. 20004. After a 30-day
period, the documents
supporting the business review will be added to the file.

###

99-009
(end copy) so, after pondering that, any ideas come to mind.....
but time will tell...


Message cf248948ImK-3792-716-00.htm, number 238, was posted on Fri May 19 at 11:55:56
Help! ACRA or NCRA?

ValDan
oldeworldcasket@aol.com


As you can see from our previous posts, we're "green" to this business so please forgive what may appear to you experts as a naive question:  

What's the difference between ACRA (American Casket Retailers Association) and NCRA (National Casket Retailers Association)?


Message cf56874dLmM-3792-1125-00.htm, number 239, was posted on Fri May 19 at 18:45:46
Gasketed not Protective

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


The Senate hearings and the pounding about "sealers" has prompted this:

www.cfsaa.org/news/may2000.htm

and lawsuits. Another site www.xroads.com/~funerals/-A12Bas1.htm

(In reply to retailer assocations - I believe if you check out the full pages of the sites and email me directly with any specific questions, it would be better.)We are two different associations, with the main goals being to inform the public of the choices they have, and to assist in preservation of those rights to choose.
Also - I don't believe anyone claims to be an expert. All questions are welcome.

A survey of funeral home prices in the Texas area, Jan. 2000
www.corridor.net/ambis/2000_Chart.html


Message cdbcc034S0U-3792-1298+00.htm, number 240, was posted on Fri May 19 at 21:37:48
in reply to cf248948ImK-3792-716-00.htm

Re: The Baby on the NCRA & ACRA

Retailer
retail@nowhere.net


The NCRA is a group that was started by a bunch of retailers who wanted to ban together and fight anti-competitive activity by funeral directors.  They volunterred their time but, the fight is expensive only a few were willing to ante up the money so the group pettered out into what it is today. An association with no leadership, goals or purpose.  Those who are still on board are personally profiting from the membership dues!

The ACRA is just one retailer's attempt to market caskets to other retailers. The dues are zip just like the bennys!

AS STATED BEFORE BE YOUR OWN MAN, USE YOUR OWN HEAD AND WATCH OUT FOR THE VULTURES!  WHEN YOUR IN THIS BUSINESS THERE ARE NO INSTRUCTION MANUALS.


Message cf577cb6CZt-3793-860+00.htm, number 241, was posted on Sat May 20 at 14:20:22
in reply to cf248948ImK-3792-716-00.htm

Re: Help! ACRA & NCRA?

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


Hi:

If you have done your homework, most funeral homes belong to more than
one org. (maybe as many as five or better) I can't say it hurts them -
but rather they gain some benefit from the exposure. HOWEVER~ myself,
as a business person, I can list no less than that amount too - (because we have more than one division in our firm ) but I
also know where I want to put the time and the effort.
It doesn't have to be one or the other - and while you do have to be sure of where your priorities lie - just be sure you don't listen to
"Retailer" who has to be thought of as the type that will try to divide and conquer, by lies.
Side note:  Retailer, why not use John Doe or Jane Doe as before -
I see clear through you - but also see you have matured some. Guess
there may be hope for you yet ;-)Are you learning from the school of hard knocks too? (like you suggest it is without the instr/manual)


Message cf568420CZt-3793-1216-00.htm, number 242, was posted on Sat May 20 at 20:15:59
totten trusts, wills 101

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


Many sites offer information on ways to fund the costs of the funeral-
and it is NOT a  (pre arrangements are a totally different thing )pre need policy from the funeral director.

Crash course in wills and trusts are at: www.mtpalermo.com/
The most common way is the Totton trust
site.health-center.com/senior/legal/assets_and_tru/tottrleg.htm
www.courttv.com/legalhelp/elder/wills/trusts.html
www.missionfcu.org/htdocs/trust.html
planners.net/demo2/plan/estate4.htm (click this simple one too)

It kills me that some people buy the overpriced - WITH interest charged "package" deal from the funeral director, not knowing that they are now paying an interest rate on a purchase that may be used years from now, instead of earning the interest themselves, at a bank in the totten trust.
(copy)From the Halt page at: www.halt.org/homepage.html
(use search for more information)
Trusts come in many forms for different purposes. A Totten Trust is the formal name for a bank
account trust. It is nothing more than joint ownership of a bank account by two or more people. It is
created simply by declaring in writing that your bank account is a trust for someone else. This is done
on the bank account registration form. Your bank clerk can help you with the appropriate papers.
As the trustee, you can spend the money as you wish but when you die, the money will go directly to
your beneficiary and need not go through probate.
(another, from AARP, in Az) Contact legal advise for your state.
www.povertylaw.org/hotline/state%20hotlines/Arizona/bank%20accounts%20-%20az.htm
(some banks give them another name, check yours)
Copy).www.vbnv.com/fdic.htm#23-29          

Insured Deposits:
 Your Questions.
  FDIC Answers.

                   Valley Bank is a FDIC Member bank, which provides added protection for you
                   and your deposited funds. This section provides information about insurance
                   coverage provided by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) to
                   depositors of insured banks and insured savings associations and answers many of
                   the commonly-asked questions in nontechnical terms.

                   The FDIC is an independent agency of the U.S. Government. It was established by
                   Congress in 1933 to insure bank deposits, help maintain sound conditions in our
                   banking system, and protect the nation's money supply in case of financial institution
                   failure. In 1989, the FDIC was given the additional duty of insuring deposits in
                   savings associations. As a result, the FDIC insures deposits in banks, using the Bank
                   Insurance Fund (BIF), and insures deposits in savings associations, using the Savings
                   Association Insurance Fund (SAIF). Both BIF and SAIF are backed by the full faith
                   and credit of the United States.
                                   16-22

                      Testamentary (Payable-On-Death)
                      Accounts
                                    What is a testamentary account?

                   A testamentary account is an account that evidences an
                   intention that the funds will belong to a named beneficiary
                   upon the death of the owner (grantor or depositor) of the
                   testamentary account. Testamentary accounts are sometimes
                   known as tentative or "Totten" trust accounts, revocable trust
                   accounts, or "payable-on-death" accounts.

                   24. How are testamentary accounts insured?

                   Testamentary accounts make up another legal ownership category
                   and are, therefore, insured separately from single ownership
                   accounts and joint accounts of the beneficiary or the owner.
                   In order to qualify for this separate insurance coverage,
                   however, a testamentary account must meet all of the following
                   requirements:

                        The named beneficiary must be the owner's spouse, child,
                        grandchild, parent, brother, or sister. ("Child" includes
                        a biological child, adopted child, and stepchild of the
                        owner. "Grandchild" includes a biological child, adopted
                        child, and stepchild of any of the owner's children.
                        "Parent" includes a biological parent, adoptive parent,
                        and stepparent of the owner. "Brother" includes a full
                        brother, half brother, brother through adoption, and
                        stepbrother. "Sister" includes a full sister, half
                        sister, sister through adoption, and stepsister.)
                        The owner's intention that, upon his or her death, the
                        funds shall belong to the named beneficiary must be shown
                        in the title of the account using commonly accepted terms
                        such as "in trust for," "as trustee for," or "payable on
                        death." These terms may be abbreviated as "ITF," "ATF,"
                        or "POD."
                        The beneficiaries must be specifically identified by name
                        in the deposit account records of the depository
                        institution.

                   Each owner meeting these requirements is insured up to
                   $100,000 per qualifying beneficiary at each insured
                   institution.

                   25. Can a testamentary account have more than $100,000 in
                   insurance coverage?

                   Yes. If a testamentary account is maintained by co-owners,
                   insurance will be determined as if each co-owner maintained a
                   separate testamentary account for each beneficiary. The
                   co-owners' interests are deemed to be equal unless otherwise
                   stated in the deposit account records. If there are several
                   beneficiaries, their interests are deemed to be equal unless
                   otherwise specified in the deposit account records.

                   Example of Insurance for Testamentary Accounts
(end copy here, doing homework on this type of Account -and leaving
instructions to that named person on what you want, and where, how, etc) might just be the ticket!


Message 98a3cd14ImK-3793-1335-00.htm, number 243, was posted on Sat May 20 at 22:15:06
Bones, Bugs & Batesville

ValDan
oldeworldcasket@aol.com


Bones, Bugs & Batesville:  The Body Farm Study

www.funerals.org/bates.htm

Warning! Not to be read over dinner!


Message cdbcc5181bg-3794-750+00.htm, number 245, was posted on Sun May 21 at 12:30:00
in reply to cf568420CZt-3793-1216-00.htm

Re: totten trusts, wills 101

ChuckG
cgalvin0970@my-deja.com


On Sat May 20, savcash wrote
----------------------------
>Many sites offer information on ways to fund the costs of the funeral-
>and it is NOT a  (pre arrangements are a totally different thing )pre need policy from the funeral director.

Betty,
  Pre-need funeral funding is NOT an investment, nor should it be treated as such.  It is merely a vehicle to cover the cost of a future event.  For example, life insurance is a TERRIBLE investment, but no financial planner worth his salt would ever recommend going without it.  Estate planning involves many aspects, and no two estates that are planned the same way.

  The majority of people who see me about funeral pre-funding are doing so as a part of a "spend down" process when entering a nursing home.  A "totten trust" or "revocable trust" does absolutely NOTHING to protect the consumer from having those funds taken by the state.  This can only be done with an "irrevocable trust" or an "irrevocably assigned" life insurance policy.  Both of which (at least in my state) can only be obtained through a licensed funeral establishment.
 
  Even if the consumer is not interested in shielding these funds from a spend down, a totten trust is a "non-guaranteed" vehicle, as opposed to a "guaranteed" contract that can be obtained through a licensed funeral establishment.  So, instead of purchasing tomorrow's expense at today's cost, your money is sitting in some little pass-book savings account, while you hope that the interest that the bank decides to pay you will cover a future cost.  Let me guess, you got this advice from a bank, right??

  Don't get me wrong, If I didn't have to offer "guaranteed" pre-funding, I wouldn't.  As a businessman, it shouldn't be my responsibility to save your money for you, and then assume the burden if it didn't keep up with my cost of doing business at the time you need my services. I would much prefer that the consumer would bear that burden and use a "totten trust", however, because most of my colleages offer guaranteed contracts, I must also offer them to stay competetive.

  Betty, the advice that you are so foolishly giving people will end up costing them thousands in lost assets in many circumstances.  In any event, people should seek the advice of a qualified financial planner and/or attorney to decide which funeral pre-funding plan meets their particular needs.

ChuckG


Message cdbcc5181bg-3794-775+00.htm, number 246, was posted on Sun May 21 at 12:54:40
in reply to cf24ef4bImK-3791-495-00.htm

Re: New To Biz! Batesville vs Dot-Com

ChuckG
cgalvin0970@my-deja.com


On Thu May 18, ValDan wrote
---------------------------
>Hello!

>We are just entering this business...

  Good luck on your new endeavor!  As you will soon find out, it will not be easy.  Retailers are entering the deathcare industry at possibly the worst time in history.  Funeral trends are moving away from the "traditional" funeral patterns of the past.  Consumers are choosing more personalized "services" and purchasing less funeral "stuff" than they did in the past.  This does not bode well for any funeral industry segment that offers no services and depends completely on the sale of funeral "stuff" to survive.

  Also, the very government regulation that made it possible for retailers to come into existence, i.e. the prohibition of handling fees and the prohibition of discounts, may prove to be the "nail in the coffin" for retailers.  Funeral homes are no longer able to depend on the profit earned from the casket sale to recoup staff, facility, and overhead costs.  They are finding that these costs must be shifted to where they belong:  namely, in the fees charged for these services.  However, the retailer does not have this ability, and must include the staff, rent, and other overhead costs in the retail price of the casket.

> In our endeavor to "start-up" our business, we began contacting casket manufacturers, of course one of these was Batesville Casket Company.

  I own and operate a small independent funeral home.  Although I started out using several manufacturers, I now use Batesville almost exclusively for many reasons.  Only one of which (in my opinion) is their superior quality.  I find that Batesville has the best customer (funeral director) support, and the most knowledgeable and professional employees, reps, and delivery personnel.  I am also told that Batesville employees enjoy some of the best employment benefits in the industry.  This company is geared heavily toward supporting the individual funeral home through the many and various programs they offer.  Showroom design and building, preneed programs, and continuing education programs are among the many resources that they offer to help the small funeral home serve its families better.

  Do I pay more for this?  You bet!  Do I pay more than the large corporate outfit that orders caskets by the truckload?  Absolutely...Volume talks, that's business.

  All of this being said, I am not sure what you think a manufacturer like Batesville can do for you anyway.  Although the quality and workmanship of the "big three" suppliers is said to be superior, there are many in your business who would disagree.  So as a casket retailer, even if they did sell to you,  you would be paying a higher wholesale price for support resources that would be of no use to you or your customers

ChuckG


Re^2: totten trusts, wills 101

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


On Sun May 21, ChuckG wrote
---------------------------
>On Sat May 20, savcash wrote
>----------------------------
>>Many sites offer information on ways to fund the costs of the funeral-
>>and it is NOT a  (pre arrangements are a totally different thing )pre need policy from the funeral director.

>Betty,
>   Pre-need funeral funding is NOT an investment, nor should it be treated as such.  It is merely a vehicle to cover the cost of a future event.  For example, life insurance is a TERRIBLE investment, but no financial planner worth his salt would ever recommend going without it.  Estate planning involves many aspects, and no two estates that are planned the same way.

>   The majority of people who see me about funeral pre-funding are doing so as a part of a "spend down" process when entering a nursing home.  A "totten trust" or "revocable trust" does absolutely NOTHING to protect the consumer from having those funds taken by the state.  This can only be done with an "irrevocable trust" or an "irrevocably assigned" life insurance policy.  Both of which (at least in my state) can only be obtained through a licensed funeral establishment.
------Hi Chuck:
First, thanks, it is always good to hear from both sides. Rest assured, I would hope anyone reading anything on the internet would ALWAYS get the advice of professionals when it comes to money. (Sorry, in my book even a funeral director does not quaify for that)
More on the Totten trust (copy)
A Trust Account

         Who Owns It?

         A trust account can be a sole or joint account. But the deposit agreement says
         that when the sole owner or last joint owner dies, the bank pays the balance in
         the account to a named "death beneficiary."

         These accounts are often called Totten trusts or P.O.D. (pay on death)
         accounts.

         While the named owner of a trust account is alive, the naming of a death
         beneficiary does not change who owns the money in the account. The owner
         does. The owner does not need to keep any money in the account. The
         beneficiary has no rights until the owner dies.

         Who Can Use It?

         Only the owner(s) can use it.

         What if the Owner Dies?

         When the sole or last surviving joint owner dies, any money in the account is
         paid directly to the designated death beneficiary. This money does not become
         part of the estate. Creditors of the estate cannot reach these funds.

         If the account is jointly owned, the surviving owner(s) gets the money just as in
         the ordinary joint account discussed above. The beneficiary gets nothing until
         the last joint owner dies.
(end copy from www.povertylaw.org/hotline/state%20hotlines/Arizona/bank%20accounts%20-%20az.htm) and that is Az. (Note it says the state or creditors can't touch it, yet some states might be different ??
It is just my opinion here, but for my money, (yes life insur. is not an investment, nor is the Totten trust) but if I wanted to be sure that there would be funds to cover the funeral costs, I'd use that trust, not spending them with a funeral home. By the time I'd pay the interest on the "note" at the home, vs gaining the freedom to keep my own interest and not having to worry if that home was going to go out of biz, be sold, or whatever- the dif in funds would be only peace and money in my pocket. But, of course, I could be wrong for others choice- here is another site (freebie lawyers, but looking to get chosen for the "service")freeadvice.com/law/5402us.htm
And from Money.com money.findlaw.com/topics/estate/articles.html
Not taken by the state, again (probate you mean?)
                                             
                                                                         

 Consumer Law Center : Legal Topics: Estate Planning: Articles

 Totten Trust

 A type of bank account in which one person deposits money in his own name but holds it in
 trust for another is known as a Totten trust. Unlike the creator of other kinds of trusts, the
 person who sets up a Totten trust is free to do anything with the money in the account. She
 does not have to be concerned about preserving the funds for the beneficiary's use or notifying
 the beneficiary of the trust's existence.

 When the person who established the Totten trust dies, the funds in
 it automatically become the property of the beneficiary without
 having to be probated. Therefore, Totten trusts are frequently used
 to avoid probate. Ask your bank for information about establishing a
 Totten trust in your state. See also Probate; Trust; Will
(end copy)

>  Let me guess, you got this advice from a bank, right??
----I've never actually gotten your side of the information, down pat. You do charge interest on this purchase, prior to the need, don't you?


>   Don't get me wrong, If I didn't have to offer "guaranteed" pre-funding, I wouldn't.  As a businessman, it shouldn't be my responsibility to save your money for you, and then assume the burden if it didn't keep up with my cost of doing business at the time you need my services. I would much prefer that the consumer would bear that burden and use a "totten trust", however, because most of my colleages offer guaranteed contracts, I must also offer them to stay competetive.
------Maybe I will move to another state, change my mind about what
I want in a funeral, or the home that I want it in. I think my way is
far better for those reasons alone, not to mention the others.
Can I get a full refund if any of the above happen?

>    In any event, people should seek the advice of a qualified financial planner and/or attorney to decide which funeral pre-funding plan meets their particular needs.
---Ditto
But there is not enough ready information about this Totten Trust on the internet. Much like the FROP rule, most people haven't a clue that it exists. So if you took it as advice, I posted it as a look see for all - to learn about it. To have other choices.
Let me know about that refund, if that is the case, people should know that too.


Message cf5684a9CZt-3794-1029+00.htm, number 248, was posted on Sun May 21 at 17:09:43
in reply to cdbcc5181bg-3794-775+00.htm

Re^2: New To Biz! Batesville vs Dot-Com

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


Just one question Chuck:

(And I'm sure Dan & others may be glad you took the time to write and inform them as you did)

If ever, Batesville became Mexican made, shifting the majority of
units from there, made NOT by Americans, would you still buy them?
(And the only reason of course, for any firm to even consider the move, would be the cost of the labor, but bet no discount on the caskets at all)Even if there were a STEEP discount, if they had been one of my suppliers, and they made that move, (keeping the same made quality)I'd drop them like a hotcake. Would you, or would you still buy from them, with or without a discount in the units?

PS> There are some problems of the US that could be solved if more people bought USA made product. I have nothing against others, it is just I am proud to be an American, and want to do biz with the same -
and keep our people working, earning a living. Not others.


Message cdbcc0a8ImK-3794-1198-00.htm, number 249, was posted on Sun May 21 at 19:57:37
A Glimpse Into The Future?

ValDan
oldeworldcasket@aol.com


Some interesting quotes from a very lengthy "must-read" article entitled "Year 2000 State of the Industry Analysis" by Alan Creedy (American Funeral Director/Kates-Boylston Publications,Inc./May 2000/Page 28)

We're unable to locate article on web to provide hyperlink so here are the highlights from the "hardcopy" of the magazine:


"Retail tribute centers are picking up steam. We all anticpate the Internet to have an impact."

"Move away from the preoccupation with caskets and into operational issues."

"Currently, Internet and storefront caskets represent about 35,000 caskets annually. But this area is growing. Within the past several months several new entries hit the .com world and we expect more."

"Overall consumers want more information, but they don't want to think about our topic. Batesville believes that this contradiction poses the greatest challenge."

"I think that, in most markets, we can expect the following:
- Continued moderation of the direct disposition trend as merchandising becomes more sophisticated and as funeral directors improve their ability to help consumers explore options.
- Successful funeral homes will find ways to appear more user friendly.
- Retail approaches will be tried and may or may not succeed.
- Branding will become important.
- Funeral directors will become more sophisticated in adapting presentations and options to different types of consumers.
- Consumers will be more aggressive in obtaining the information they want - when they want it.
- Alternatives, including budget and virtual funeral homes, will continue to proliferate.
- Preneed will increase in popularity among consumers as a means of obtaining information, controlling the price and personalizing the form of the funeral.
- Funeral directors will become more responsive to the consumer's need to have them be assertive in the process."

"As with most industries at this stage of a cycle, the waiting has begun for the thought leaders and pioneers to lead the way."

"Overall, I would interpret the current cycle as a period of acceptance that continued success will requre some degree of sophistication and adaptation. The mood itself is a little calmer. Yet, there is still a mild urgency."

"I continue to hold to the belief that a key strategy for the future is for funeral directors to assume a professional advisory role much like that of a lawyer or doctor. The over reliance on merchandise systems to control sales average will eventually backfire as consumers try to comprehend the process in an effort to meet needs in which they have little experience. A very real challenge for any industry is the dysfunctional disconnect that often occurs between seller and buyer. Sellers think of products while buyers think of activities (what must be done). The casket, to the consumer, is an incidental part of the process. It is not the bundle of activities. This traditional and obvious disconnect between funeral director and family is about to become a serious liability as the Internet provides access to greater information than ever before. Funeral directors who claim they know their families should, in my opinion, become objects of derision. True professionals think in terms of process - not product."

"With the proliferating diversity of competitive options now appearing in so many mid- to large-size cities I believe that those firms who want to be a major player for the future will have to address the issues of infrastructure and sophistication. In an industry experiencing rapid transition bricks and mortar are often a liability."

[ This message was edited on Sun May 21 by the author ]


Message cdbcc6261bg-3794-1357+00.htm, number 250, was posted on Sun May 21 at 22:37:22
in reply to cf5684a9CZt-3794-1015+00.htm

Re^3: totten trusts, wills 101

ChuckG
cgalvin0970@my-deja.com


>I would hope anyone reading anything on the internet would ALWAYS get the advice of professionals when it comes to money. (Sorry, in my book even a funeral director does not quaify for that)

  Actually Betty, along with attorneys and financial planners, licensed funeral directors are among the few professionals who are authorized to assist consumers with setting up funeral trusts without engaging in the unauthorized practice of law.  Look it up.

>(Note it says the state or creditors can't touch it, yet some states might be different ??

  In the case of a spend down, the claims of creditors are not the problem.  The state can, AND WILL take these funds and the family will be back to square one.  The survivors will end up having to pay for funeral arrangements that were supposed to have been already saved for by the deceased.  Believe me Betty, these people always come to their funeral director looking to have us fix their mess when they find out that the POD account that someone told them to set up has been taken by the state to pay for nursing home expenses.

>but if I wanted to be sure that there would be funds to cover the funeral costs, I'd use that trust, not spending them with a funeral home.

  As I said before, as a businessman I would rather have you bear that risk too.  But by the very definition of a "guaranteed preneed contract", making sure that there are enough funds to cover funeral costs is the funeral director's worry, not yours.

>and not having to worry if that home was going to go out of biz, be sold, or whatever-

  The funeral home might go out of business or be sold with, or without your trust account.  Your money is still in the bank that the funeral home designated as their escrow agent, and in all likelihood, your contract would be sold to, and honored by the successor to the original funeral home.  If it is not honored by the successor, you are no worse off than if you had used a totten trust.

>You do charge interest on this purchase, prior to the need, don't you?

  I guess I don't understand your question.  The only interest that I charge is on outstanding balances after I have performed the services.

>------Maybe I will move to another state, change my mind about what
>I want in a funeral, or the home that I want it in. I think my way is
>far better for those reasons alone, not to mention the others.

Sure, a totten trust has benefits in some cases, but it also has some large drawbacks.  For the majority of people who see me about preplanning, a totten trust or POD account is useless.  Just ask any elder law attoney.

>Can I get a full refund if any of the above happen?

  My funeral home refunds 100% plus accrued interest. But, my state allows me to keep 10% of the original trusted amount to cover my administrative costs of setting up and maintaining the trust and it's records if I so choose.  Each state is different.

>But there is not enough ready information about this Totten Trust on the internet.

  Betty, I have found that the Internet is a good source for A LOT of information.  However, it is NOT a good source for GOOD information.  You might find some bit of info that will be of great value to you, but you are also just as likely to get wrong information too.  You should take anything that you read on the Internet, including my posts, as FREE ADVICE...and WORTH EVERY PENNY!

ChuckG


Message 98a3c2cf1bg-3794-1376+00.htm, number 251, was posted on Sun May 21 at 22:55:39
in reply to cf5684a9CZt-3794-1029+00.htm

Re^3: New To Biz! Batesville vs Dot-Com

ChuckG
cgalvin0970@my-deja.com



>If ever, Batesville became Mexican made, shifting the majority of
>units from there, made NOT by Americans, would you still buy them?

  If the quality, customer support, etc. all remained superior to other American made suppliers?  Yup.  If an American worker or industry can't compete with a foreign worker or industry, we are doing ourselves no favor by purchasing an inferior product just because it is made in the USA.  We become less competitive as a nation by doing so.

>(And the only reason of course, for any firm to even consider the move, would be the cost of the labor, but bet no discount on the caskets at all)Even if there were a STEEP discount, if they had been one of my suppliers, and they made that move, (keeping the same made quality)I'd drop them like a hotcake. Would you, or would you still buy from them, with or without a discount in the units?

  My first priority is the level of quality and support for the products offered through my funeral home.  Next comes being able to obtain that desired level of quality and support at the lowest cost possible.  If this can be done by a Mexican company, then so be it.  They get my business.  If the level of quality and support can only be met by American workers at a higher cost, then the American manufacturer gets my business.

ChuckG


FTC Funeral Rule Violators

ValDan
oldeworldcasket@aol.com


"The Federal Trade Commission—over-worked and under-funded—has been trying to get the various states to take over enforcement of the Funeral Rule. By training state people in the requirements for funeral shoppers, they have demonstrated that there are funeral homes which still are not complying with the Rule."

vbiweb.champlain.edu/famsa/frop.htm

See also:  Issues of Social Concern at:

vbiweb.champlain.edu/famsa/social.htm

[ This message was edited on Mon May 22 by the author ]


Message cf568745CZt-3795-909+00.htm, number 254, was posted on Mon May 22 at 15:11:14
in reply to cdbcc0a8ImK-3794-1198+00.htm

Kates, and MSNBC

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


Found this from their site: (state specfic)
(copy) Legislation (SB 462) aimed at reforming trusting of preneed
                            product sales in the state of Georgia passed the Georgia General
                            Assembly March 22 after House and Senate approval of a
                            Conference Committee agreement.
                            The main provisions of the legislation include:
                            • Requires 100 percent trusting and full refundability of caskets
                            sold preneed: Provides that for caskets sold preneed, regardless of
                            who makes the sale, 100 percent of funds must be fully escrowed
                            and fully refundable at any time prior to delivery or death.
                            • Requires registration of preneed salespeople: Requires that
                            cemetery salespeople and casket store owners, if selling on a
                            preneed basis, must register with the Secretary of State.
                            Individuals with a criminal history or who have defrauded
                            consumers would be barred.
                            • Creates full disclosure requirements: Compels all providers of
                            merchandise or services to fully disclose prices on an itemized
                            basis and provide full descriptions of merchandise in preneed
                            contracts, elevating everyone to the current level required of
                            funeral service professionals.
                            • Equalizes trust refundability requirements on vaults and
                            monuments: Regardless of who makes the sale, provisions
                            equalize the escrow requirements on vaults and monuments sold
                            preneed at 35 percent of sales price but never less that 110 percent
                            of the wholesale price and require full refundability of sales price.
                            All other merchandise and services sold preneed are fully
                            refundable and must be 100 percent trusted.
                            • Closes “delivery” loophole: Provisions close the loophole in
                            current law that permits vaults and monuments purchased on a
                            preneed basis to be “delivered” prior to death.
                            The majority of Conference Committee debate and the final issue
                            to be resolved was the escrow percentage level on vaults and
                            monuments. Three separate meetings were held to resolve final
                            differences. At the conclusion of the second conference gathering
                            on the morning of March 22, conferees were at a standstill over
                            the issue.
                            The impasse was broken during the third and final meeting, where
                            House conferees were faced with a take-it-or-leave-it offer that
                            included the 35 percent trusting level. Without an agreement at
                            that point, the bill would have died.
                            Considering the numerous new consumer protections in the
                            legislation, House conferees agreed to the compromise. Upon
                            signature of the Governor, the legislation will become law July 1.
                            www.kates-boylston.com/afd.html
(couldn't find link to your info)
But I did get this emailed to me...does the news go too far?
Is there really a belief that some f.d. are still getting "handling fees"? (copy)


              Don’t bury money in the ground
              Watching your finances when planning
              a funeral doesn’t disrespect the deceased
                                                         By Michelle Singletary
                                                 WASHINGTON POST WRITERS GROUP  www.msnbc.com/news/409957.asp?0m=-1CU

              May 21 — Three years ago this month my brother,
              Mitchell, died. When I got the call telling me my
              dear brother had departed, I doubled over as if I
              had been sucker punched in the stomach. I felt
              responsible for his death.



                               THE DAY BEFORE Mitchell died I was supposed to
                        pick him up to spend the Memorial Day weekend at my
                        house. But I ended up working late. Too tired to drive the
                        45 miles to get him, I called and said I’d pick him up the
                        next morning.
                               The next morning Mitchell died from a massive seizure.
                        He had epilepsy. He was 32 and died alone.
                               The grief and guilt felt like someone was pushing a
                        50-pound weight down on my heart. I could hardly breathe.
                        I couldn’t stop blaming myself.
                               If only I had picked Mitchell up as I had planned. If
                        only he had been with me then I could have gotten him
                        medical help.
                               If only.
                               Despite all my guilt tripping, when it came time to make
                        the arrangements for Mitchell’s “Homecoming,” as they call
                        it in my faith, I tried not to let my heartache get in the way of
                        planning a simple, low-budget funeral.
                               
                        DOSE OF HOMESPUN WISDOM
    Even in my most
    mournful moment
    I knew the amount
    of money I spent
    on my brother’s
    funeral was no
    reflection of my
    feelings for him.

                               I was following my grandmother’s example. Big Mama
                        was determined not to go broke putting my grandfather
                        away after he died from lung cancer.
                               I’ll never forget the exchange she had with the funeral
                        director. When he pulled out the casket catalog, he
                        immediately flipped to the pages depicting expensive
                        caskets of polished hardwood lined with fine fabric.
                               Big Mama didn’t pay him any mind. She flipped the
                        pages back to your basic boxes. She chose a plain, gray,
                        metal casket that cost about $700.
                               “Of course that cheaper model will do,” the director
                        said. “But don’t you think your husband deserves the best?”

                                                        “Lee Kelly got the
                                                 best I could give him when
                                                 he was alive,” Big Mama
                                                 said. “Besides, he’s dead.
                                                 He won’t know if I’m
                                                 burying him in a pine box
                                                 or a bed sheet.”
                               The director tried another tactic. He switched from
                        “deserving” to “preserving.” He recommended a
                        higher-priced casket that could help preserve my
                        grandfather’s body.
                               “Surely, you want to protect your husband’s remains,”
                        he said.
                               “Why? Will he know when it rains?” she asked.
                               In the end my grandfather and brother had dignified but
                        inexpensive funerals. Even in my most mournful moment I
                        knew the amount of money I spent on my brother’s funeral
                        was no reflection of my feelings for him.
                               
                        GRIEF CONSUMES GOOD SENSE
       Advertisement

                   






                               Perhaps at no other time are consumers more
                        vulnerable than when a loved one passes away.
                               Who wants to comparison shop for funeral homes,
                        caskets or burial plots when you’re grieving?
                               And that’s exactly what some providers in the funeral
                        industry count on — consumers too consumed with sorrow
                        to be concerned about saving money.
                               Surely there are many decent funeral directors out
                        there. But there are also unethical death care providers just
                        waiting to prey on the bereaved. They withhold price lists,
                        overcharge for caskets and lie about what services or
                        products are required by law.
                               For instance, a casket is not required for cremation, as
                        some will imply. And some still try to charge a casket
                        handling fee if you provide your own casket from an outside
                        source, although that’s illegal under federal law.
                               Even scrupulous providers often persuade
                        grief-stricken relatives to spend far more than is probably
                        necessary.
                               Funerals are now one of the largest purchases most
                        consumers will make and can cost from $5,000 to $10,000.
                        Caskets alone can cost thousands of dollars with the
                        average costing about $2,000.
                               
                        KEEP CONTROL OF MONEY
    There is nothing
    disrespectful in
    living — or dying
    — within your
    means.

                               Some people try to spare their relatives grief by
                        prepaying for funeral and burial services. Yet problems are
                        common with these contracts, according to consumer
                        advocates.
                               Prepay plans are often nonrefundable or
                        nontransferable, meaning consumers can’t switch mortuaries
                        or change their minds. Hidden fees later can mean mourning
                        relatives find they have to pay more money when their loved
                        one dies. In the worst cases, the mortician may go out of
                        business and the money disappears.

                                                        As an alternative,
                                                 AARP urges consumers
                                                 to put their burial
                                                 preferences in writing and
                                                 keep control of their
                                                 money. Instead of a
                                                 prepaid plan it suggests
                        earmarking a certificate of deposit or life insurance policy or
                        opening a designated savings account jointly with a family
                        member who has right of survivorship so funds are not
                        taxed.
                               But what often drives prices up, however, is our own
                        guilt.
                               There is nothing disrespectful in living — or dying —
                        within your means.
                               My grandmother lived several years after my
                        grandfather died and the money she saved on his funeral
                        helped support her.
                               As Big Mama said, “It doesn’t make good sense to
                        bury good money in the ground.”
                               (end story)


Message cf568406LmM-3799-781-00.htm, number 255, was posted on Fri May 26 at 13:02:01
From fancy caskets, to cardboard boxes

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


The jury is still out on the funeral rule review, when FTC  releases more information.  
But here are a few sites going from one extreme - Fancy casket, the last chance to live it up (But you have to get them thru a broker, they don't sell directly to casket stores, just yet anyway. NOT a recommendation here for the ART casket line) www.sltrib.com:80/05252000/utah/52133.htm

www.post-gazette.com:80/magazine/20000523life9.asp Life support, the hard sell and the smart reply  -Life Support: The high cost of dying

                You can't take it with you, so they'll want it before you go

dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000523/en/people-cartland_2.html
Queen of romance to be buried in cardboard coffin

And we have been listed on the About Com (heavily promoted site)search and special link on their Funeral, death and dying page.
dying.about.com/health/dying/msub8.htm?terms=funeral+information


Message cf568406LmM-3799-800-00.htm, number 256, was posted on Fri May 26 at 13:21:20
From fancy caskets to cardboard boxes

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


The jury is still out on the funeral rule review, when FTC  releases more information.  
Their statement (Committee on Aging, funeral testimony) of April, 2000 www.ftc.gov/os/2000/04/funeraltestimony.htm

But here are a few sites going from one extreme - Fancy casket, the last chance to live it up (But you have to get them thru a broker, they don't sell directly to casket stores, just yet anyway. NOT a recommendation here for the ART casket line) www.sltrib.com:80/05252000/utah/52133.htm

www.post-gazette.com:80/magazine/20000523life9.asp Life support, the hard sell and the smart reply  -Life Support: The high cost of dying

                You can't take it with you, so they'll want it before you go

dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000523/en/people-cartland_2.html
Queen of romance to be buried in cardboard coffin

And we have been listed on the About Com (heavily promoted site)search and special link on their Funeral, death and dying page.
dying.about.com/health/dying/msub8.htm?terms=funeral+information


Message 18481ddcWzc-3799-809-00.htm, number 257, was posted on Fri May 26 at 13:28:48
Joke

Greenwood Casket Co
greenwood@writeme.com


Hey, did you hear the one about the Funeral Director that wouldn't wear a condom. He read "protective" on the package and figured it was just sales hype.

Message cc601851PRl-3800-64+00.htm, number 258, was posted on Sat May 27 at 01:04:12
in reply to cf568406LmM-3799-800-00.htm

Re: From fancy caskets to cardboard boxes

De'Lores P. Arline
delarl@usa.net


On Fri May 26, webmaster wrote
------------------------------
Broker no longer needed for Art Caskets. Manufacturer, White Lights of Dallas, Texas will sell to casket stores.

Representative called me and sent catalog.

When asked why the change of business policy, he responded that the funeral directors "just didn't get it".

Personally, I'm not surprised, just more evidence of the prima donna syndrome of the funeral industry, choosing what's right for the consumer.

>The jury is still out on the funeral rule review, when FTC  releases more information.  
>Their statement (Committee on Aging, funeral testimony) of April, 2000 www.ftc.gov/os/2000/04/funeraltestimony.htm

>But here are a few sites going from one extreme - Fancy casket, the last chance to live it up (But you have to get them thru a broker, they don't sell directly to casket stores, just yet anyway. NOT a recommendation here for the ART casket line) www.sltrib.com:80/05252000/utah/52133.htm

>www.post-gazette.com:80/magazine/20000523life9.asp Life support, the hard sell and the smart reply  -Life Support: The high cost of dying

>                 You can't take it with you, so they'll want it before you go

>dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000523/en/people-cartland_2.html
>Queen of romance to be buried in cardboard coffin

>And we have been listed on the About Com (heavily promoted site)search and special link on their Funeral, death and dying page.
>dying.about.com/health/dying/msub8.htm?terms=funeral+information
>


Message cc601851PRl-3800-65+00.htm, number 259, was posted on Sat May 27 at 01:04:59
in reply to cf568406LmM-3799-800-00.htm

Re: From fancy caskets to cardboard boxes

De'Lores P. Arline
delarl@usa.net


On Fri May 26, webmaster wrote
------------------------------
Broker no longer needed for Art Caskets. Manufacturer, White Lights of Dallas, Texas will sell to casket stores.

Representative called me and sent catalog.

When asked why the change of business policy, he responded that the funeral directors "just didn't get it".

Personally, I'm not surprised, just more evidence of the prima donna syndrome of the funeral industry, choosing what's right for the consumer.

>The jury is still out on the funeral rule review, when FTC  releases more information.  
>Their statement (Committee on Aging, funeral testimony) of April, 2000 www.ftc.gov/os/2000/04/funeraltestimony.htm

>But here are a few sites going from one extreme - Fancy casket, the last chance to live it up (But you have to get them thru a broker, they don't sell directly to casket stores, just yet anyway. NOT a recommendation here for the ART casket line) www.sltrib.com:80/05252000/utah/52133.htm

>www.post-gazette.com:80/magazine/20000523life9.asp Life support, the hard sell and the smart reply  -Life Support: The high cost of dying

>                 You can't take it with you, so they'll want it before you go

>dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000523/en/people-cartland_2.html
>Queen of romance to be buried in cardboard coffin

>And we have been listed on the About Com (heavily promoted site)search and special link on their Funeral, death and dying page.
>dying.about.com/health/dying/msub8.htm?terms=funeral+information
>


Message cdbcc8a41bg-3801-818+00.htm, number 260, was posted on Sun May 28 at 13:38:07
in reply to cc601851PRl-3800-65+00.htm

Re^2: From fancy caskets to cardboard boxes

ChuckG
cgalvin0970@my-deja.com



>When asked why the change of business policy, he responded that the funeral directors "just didn't get it".

  I am surprised that White Light is now finding this to be the case.  I spoke with them at some length when they itroduced their new product at the NFDA convention in Boston. They said that their caskets were being extremely well received by the industry, particularly considering that New England is one of the most traditionally oriented parts of the country.   I have heard nothing but positive remarks from my colleagues since that time.  Their coverage in the industry press, as well as the mainstream press has been fantastic too.
 
  When I spoke with my Artcasket supplier about two months ago, they said that sales were going reasonably well for a product of this type.  They have even recently expanded their selection to include several more designs, as well as those already offered.
 
  I hope that White Light's new attitude isn't a sign that they aren't in it for the long run.  It would make me uncomfortable selling one of these units on a pre-need basis.

ChuckG


Message 98a3ccd6D0x-3801-1233-00.htm, number 261, was posted on Sun May 28 at 20:33:20
Memorial Day an excellent marketing opportunity

Charleston Discount Caskets
cdcasket@usa.net


Last year I found alot of new business while handing out hand bills at the local cemetery on memorial day. Don't miss out on this exciting opportunity to increase your business!
Most people I talked to felt they had been taken advantage of, by the funeral directors.

Message cdbcc88a1bg-3801-1391+00.htm, number 262, was posted on Sun May 28 at 23:10:32
in reply to 98a3ccd6D0x-3801-1233-00.htm

Re: Memorial Day an excellent marketing opportunity

ChuckG
cgalvin0970@my-deja.com


On Sun May 28, Charleston Discount Caskets wrote
------------------------------------------------
>Last year I found alot of new business while handing out hand bills at the local cemetery on memorial day. Don't miss out on this exciting opportunity to increase your business!
>Most people I talked to felt they had been taken advantage of, by the funeral directors.

  Nothing says "we care" quite like handing out sales literature to mourners while they visit the cemetery, right?  Great job!

ChuckG


Message cf577ca2CZt-3802-928+00.htm, number 263, was posted on Mon May 29 at 15:29:26
in reply to cdbcc88a1bg-3801-1391+00.htm

Re^2: Memorial Day an excellent marketing opportunity

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


On Sun May 28, ChuckG wrote
---------------------------
>On Sun May 28, Charleston Discount Caskets wrote
>------------------------------------------------
>>Last year I found alot of new business while handing out hand bills at the local cemetery on memorial day.
------Yep, people are out and about, great day to advertise. Us, too,
but at a parade, with our lettered stock car, throwing candy (2nd yr too ;-)photo link below

>   Nothing says "we care" quite like handing out sales literature to mourners while they visit the cemetery, right?  Great job!
-----No dif. than nurseries selling flowers, urns, flags for same.
Would think they wouldn't stll be classified as mourners - and for sure, if anyone objected they'd let him know, guess then he wouldn't have returned the next year. I think it's better too, than mass mailing coupons like some funeral homes do.....got quite a few of those lately.

Our news release of the same frop page we just put up - from post back on May 1st, and photo of one of the stock cars we sponser near bottom of page, center

search.news.yahoo.com/search/news?p=frop&hc=0&hs=1

ps. Because we do car shows and such, word must be getting around-
someone called from Ca. today, wants to buy a fiberglass casket to
make the "Munster's Drag-u-la Hot Rod casket" take off from the t.v.
show to enter all over in car shows, hot rod exhibts, parades, etc. Seems he tried two funeral homes to buy the casket, and they told him they couldn't sell him a casket unless someone died......(I've seen them used in car show entries before-
tastefully done, so you might see A Team Master's name on this unit
as partly a sponsor too, great advertisement!)I'll put up a photo if it turns out that way.
Thanks for news on White Light De'Lores, perhaps going to get the
Last Ride casket that has the winning flags on it....


Message ce9cf221RN9-3803-1002+00.htm, number 264, was posted on Tue May 30 at 16:42:34
in reply to cdbcc8a41bg-3801-818+00.htm

Re^3: From fancy caskets to cardboard boxes

robin
jtbod1@netscape.net


On Sun May 28, ChuckG wrote
---------------------------
>>>When asked why the change of business policy, he responded that the funeral directors "just didn't get it".

>   I hope that White Light's new attitude isn't a sign that they aren't in it for the long run.  It would make me uncomfortable selling one of these units on a pre-need basis.

>ChuckG

This is what drives me crazy in this industry.  You have unsubstantiated comment and innuendo (as per De'Lores' original statement re the "just didn't get it") followed by Chuck's reaction, above, that results in pre-need concern.  Neither of these have to occur if both the retailers and the funeral directors would simply do their own due diligence.
 
By this I mean:  Call the top individual of a company if you have concern or have heard a rumor.  Read and research.  If the company is public, go to freedgar.com and read everything you can on their reports.  There are dozens of additional resources of which I would be happy to suggest and/or provide.  But, in any case, do yourself a favor and do not print topical (or off-topic, for that matter) discussion that you are relaying by "assuming", via the grapevine, or merely wish to denigrate the other party.  It helps neither the retailers nor the f.d's to read the petty crap I see on the various BB's.  

With that said, let me clear up the matter of the Artcaskets.com's White Light products.  I called Pat Fant, the CEO, and simply asked the question of distribution policies.  Any of you can do the same.  The info will follow in the next post.  In the meantime, please read the most recent press release from the company, that may allow you additional insight as to company policy.

And, before I copy the press release, the statement of "funeral directors just don't get it" is crap and untrue.  More about that next post as well.
---------------------
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE                          CONTACT:
May 17, 2000                              Dennis Sternitzky
                                               Patrick Fant
                                               214-741-6151
                                                     www.artcaskets.com

WHITELIGHT PAYS FUNERAL HOMES FOR SERVICE

Pin-the-Pillow Program  
supports new affinity marketing initiative


DALLAS, TX - WhiteLight, the Dallas-based creator of the patented Art Casket®, announces an innovative funeral home rewards program that bridges the gap between casket seller and funeral service provider.

Most funeral homes are concerned about the rising availability of direct-to-consumer funeral merchandise because this channel of distribution may threaten profits.  Respecting the value provided by funeral professionals, WhiteLight has created a new  co-op fund that rewards funeral homes when they provide service to families who have purchased WhiteLight affinity program caskets directly from the company.

A new line of WhiteLight Art Caskets® has been created to appeal specifically to members of affinity groups that are known for their exceptional pride-in-belonging.  These distinctive theme caskets reflect specific branches of military service, university affiliation and other designs that recognize individual life achievements.  These new licensed products are being offered through professional and service organizations directly to their membership.

"By utilizing a WhiteLight Art Casket® in a service, a funeral home demonstrates our product, which promotes trial," said Patrick Fant, Co-founder /CEO of WhiteLight.  "The participating funeral home will be able to take advantage of our manufacturer's co-op fund, or they may choose discounts on over 35 WhiteLight catalog products that are not licensed to organizations."

WhiteLight Co-Founder/COO Dennis Sternitzky reports that, "since the Art Casket® is not discounted, but sold only at the retail price, WhiteLight can make this fund available to participating funeral homes.  We have named this the Pin-the-Pillow Program, because the casket is delivered to the funeral home with a redeemable certificate - of significant value - pinned to the pillow."


Page 2


"It is clear that there is room for improvement within our industry in how we provide families with the full scope of options available.  Many funeral directors want to display WhiteLight products, but are blocked from doing so because of pre-existing agreements," said Sternitzky.

"It's a win-win for everyone involved," said Fant.  "WhiteLight has developed so many new affinity caskets that it has become impractical for funeral homes to stock and display these specialty pieces.  It makes sense for us to promote these products directly and reward participating funeral homes from a marketing co-op fund.  This is a program as unique as the Art Casket® product itself," Fant continued.

WhiteLight Art Caskets® are built on domestically made 18-gauge, gasket-equipped steel shells.  Each is fitted with complementary swing-bar hardware.  By Spring 2000, the catalog available to funeral homes is scheduled to expand from 35 choices to more than 50.

WhiteLight is a corporate sponsor of the Mastering the Media Video Series, an NFDA endorsed program to help death care professionals be better prepared to relate and respond to the media.

For a complete list of WhiteLight area distributors visit www.artcaskets.com, or call toll free 877-ARTCASKET (278-2275).

                                   - 30 -





Re^4: From fancy caskets to cardboard boxes

robin
jtbod1@netscape.net


(continued re Artcaskets.com)

>>Broker no longer needed for Art Caskets. Manufacturer, White Lights of Dallas, Texas will sell to casket stores.>>

The company CEO indicates that the White Light line is sold (1) through distributors to funeral homes, or (2) through the affinity programs noted in the press release.  With the affinity program (most commonly a service organization such as VFW), an individual can actually order the product for delivery to the funeral home.  So..."by the book", Art Caskets do NOT accept orders from retail outlets.  Go to the website to obtain the dsitributor information.

There are, of course, exceptions to every "rule".  Retail outlets with a licensed funeral director can obtain anything he or she wants:  Batesville, York, Art casket, and so on.  There is also an "after market" for these units from many funeral directors not in the retail business.  (Please note I did not say "gray market" or "underground market".)

In any case, I speak up when I see B.S. being posted.  Art Caskets executives will never comment that "funeral directors don't get it"; if a salesperson did so, he's not representing his company.  This is a good and up-n-coming company.  If you want their product, call the boss of the company...it's easy, I did...and figure out a way to stock it.  If you're not interested, OK, but don't spread crap.  

Just my 2centsworth.

Robin

 


Message cf56871eLmM-3803-1325-00.htm, number 267, was posted on Tue May 30 at 22:05:14
Trying to keep up with military funerals

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


At a rate of over 1,000 deaths a day, soldier's families are seeing honors at funerals. Mandated as of Jan/2000
www.cnn.com/2000/US/05/29/military.funerals/

Burial benefits, but only 35% of those that could, take the military benefits
www.cem.va.gov/

The history of Taps
www.west-point.org/taps/Taps.html  24 notes that Tap into emotions

 How did it become associated with funerals? The earliest official reference to the
mandatory use of Taps at military funeral ceremonies is found in the U.S. Army
Infantry Drill Regulations for 1891, although it had doubtless been used unofficially
long before that time, under its former designation Extinguish Lights.

     The first use of Taps at a funeral during the Peninsular Campaign in Virginia.
Captain John C. Tidball of Battery A, 2nd Artillery ordered it played for the burial of a
cannoneer killed in action. Since the enemy was close, he worried that the traditional 3
volleys would renew fighting.

     During the Peninsular Campaign in 1862, a soldier of Tidball's Battery - A of the
2nd Artillery - was buried at a time when the battery occupied an advanced position,
concealed in the woods. It was unsafe to fire the customary three volleys over the
grave on account of the proximity of the enemy, and it occurred to Captain Tidball that
the sounding of Taps would be the most ceremony that would be substituted. The
custom, thus originated, was taken up throughout the Army of the Potomac, and finally
confirmed by orders. Colonel James A. Moss Officer's Manual Pub. George Banta
Publishing Co. Menasha Wisconsin 1913 Elbridge Coby in Army Talk (Princeton, 1942),
p.208 states that it was B Battery of the Third Artillery that first used Taps at a
military funeral.

     This first sounding of Taps at a military funeral is commemorated in a stained glass
window at The Chapel of the Centurion (The Old Post Chapel) at Fort Monroe, Virginia.
The window, made by R. Geissler of New York and based on a painting by Sidney King,
was dedicated in 1958 and shows a bugler and a flag at half staff. In that picture a
drummer boy stands beside the bugler. The grandson of that drummer boy purchased
Berkeley Plantation where Harrisons Landing is located. The site where Taps was born
is also commemorated. In this case, by a monument located on the grounds of Berkeley
Plantation. This monument to Taps was erected by the Virginia American Legion and
dedicated on July 4, 1969. The site is also rich in history, for the Harrisons of Berkeley
Plantation included Benjamin Harrison and William Henry Harrison - both presidents of
the United States and one a signer of the Declaration of Independence.

     It must be pointed out that other stories of the origin of Taps exist. A popular one
is that of a Northern boy who was killed fighting for the south. His father, Robert
Ellison a Captain in the Union Army, came upon his son's body on the battlefield and
found the notes to Taps in a pocket of the dead boy's Confederate uniform. When
Union General Daniel Sickles heard the story, he had the notes sounded at the boy's
funeral. There is no evidence to back up the story or the existence of Captain Ellison.
As with many other customs, this solemn tradition continues today. Although
Butterfield merely revised an earlier bugle call, his role in producing those 24 notes
gives him a place in the history of music as well as the history of war.

As soon as Taps was sounded that night in July 1862, words were put with the music.
The first were, "Go To Sleep, Go to Sleep." As the years went on many more versions
were created. There are no official words to the music but here are some of the more
popular verses:

Day is done, gone the sun,
From the hills, from the lake,
From the skies.
All is well, safely rest,
God is nigh.

Go to sleep, peaceful sleep,
May the soldier or sailor,
God keep.
On the land or the deep,
Safe in sleep.

Love, good night, Must thou go,
When the day, And the night
Need thee so?
All is well. Speedeth all
To their rest.

Fades the light; And afar
Goeth day, And the stars
Shineth bright,
Fare thee well; Day has gone,
Night is on.

Thanks and praise, For our days,
'Neath the sun, Neath the stars,
'Neath the sky,
As we go, This we know,
God is nigh.


Message cf56871eLmM-3804-8+00.htm, number 268, was posted on Wed May 31 at 00:08:02
in reply to cf577ca2CZt-3802-928+00.htm

M/Day poster's Email is a fake, is post too?

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


When trying to write to the poster, this was returned. Makes you wonder doesn't it?

 ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal
 errors -----
  cdcasket@usa.net

 ----- Transcript of session follows -----
 .... while talking to mxpool01.netaddress.usa.net.:
 >>> RCPT To: cdcasket@usa.net
 <<< 550 cdcasket@usa.net User not known
 550 cdcasket@usa.net User unknown

And, is this for real?
www.summum.org/mummification/arrange/costs.htm




            Summum Mummificationsm
            COSTS as of January 1998


            Memorial Services

                 Memorial/funeral services as detailed in your Last Will and Testament.
                 Contact the funeral home of your choice and develop a list of the services
                 you desire. By law, funeral homes are required to give you current prices
                 over the telephone. These services may take place prior to the
                 Mummification process or upon the return of your Mummy to its final resting
                 place.

                 Cost: $5,000.00 and up

            Transportation

                 Mummification is performed in Salt Lake City, Utah, hence, we must
                 transport your body to and from Salt Lake via air transportation.

                 Cost: $5,000.00 and up

            Mummification

                 Mummification services in Salt Lake City (time and materials).

                 Cost: $12,000.00

            Mummiform

                 Plain Bronze Mummiform, Egyptian motif.

                 Cost: $36,000.00

            Mausoleum

                 Mausoleum space is contracted between you and a cemetery.

                 Cost: $5,000.00 and up

            TOTAL:

                 $63,000.00 +

                 Note: the price of your funeral or memorial service, mausoleum, and
                 transportation can vary considerably.


            « Arrangements
            « Summum Mummification  
Pets start at about $14,000.00


Message d1fd3011PRl-3804-175+00.htm, number 269, was posted on Wed May 31 at 02:55:45
in reply to ce9cf221RN9-3803-1020+00.htm

Re^5: From fancy caskets to cardboard boxes

De'Lores P. Arline
delarl@usa.net


On Tue May 30, robin wrote
--------------------------
Robin,

If you would take the time to comprehend my post regarding White Light Caskets you would grasp several things.

1. First and most significant -- I was relaying information from a two way conversation. As previously stated I was called by a REPRESENTATIVE of White Light. De'Lores + REPRESENTATIVE = two people in this exchange and you were not one of them. It is highly unlikely that you can verify what was said during this conversation. I asked why the change in policy and that was his answer. What you choose to believe is your problem.

2. The intent of the post was to inform others of the availability of the product - not to create controversy. I chose to express my personal opinion also, and the last time I checked, this is okay in America. If anyone should know this, it should be you, since you regularly pontificate on this board.

3. Apparently, the CEO doesn't know what his underlings are doing with his product, which I seriously doubt. I am not a FD and I received an UNSOLICITED catalog and request for business. Direct from the company -- no middleman, gray or underground market involvement. Since you are no good at monitoring phone conversations, you might ought to try mail delivery -- then you can let us know who received what.

4. Further, I did not need to contact the CEO to check their policy change, because it did not matter that much to me. I am happy with my suppliers and really have no need for the ArtCaskets.

For you to state "Art Caskets executive would never comment..." appears to be quite an assumption or you must be psychic. Talk about crap.

You really need to keep your two cents worth or at least ask for change.

De'Lores



>(continued re Artcaskets.com)

>>>Broker no longer needed for Art Caskets. Manufacturer, White Lights of Dallas, Texas will sell to casket stores.>>

>The company CEO indicates that the White Light line is sold (1) through distributors to funeral homes, or (2) through the affinity programs noted in the press release.  With the affinity program (most commonly a service organization such as VFW), an individual can actually order the product for delivery to the funeral home.  So..."by the book", Art Caskets do NOT accept orders from retail outlets.  Go to the website to obtain the dsitributor information.

>There are, of course, exceptions to every "rule".  Retail outlets with a licensed funeral director can obtain anything he or she wants:  Batesville, York, Art casket, and so on.  There is also an "after market" for these units from many funeral directors not in the retail business.  (Please note I did not say "gray market" or "underground market".)

>In any case, I speak up when I see B.S. being posted.  Art Caskets executives will never comment that "funeral directors don't get it"; if a salesperson did so, he's not representing his company.  This is a good and up-n-coming company.  If you want their product, call the boss of the company...it's easy, I did...and figure out a way to stock it.  If you're not interested, OK, but don't spread crap.  

>Just my 2centsworth.

>Robin

>  
>


Message d1fd3011PRl-3804-187+00.htm, number 270, was posted on Wed May 31 at 03:07:17
in reply to cdbcc8a41bg-3801-818+00.htm

Re^3: From fancy caskets to cardboard boxes

De'Lores P. Arline
delarl@usa.net


Chuck,

The guy that called me did not express that the company was in trouble or anything dire.

I just happened to inquire about the change of policy and he made the statement.  I felt that they, like any good business, were seeking to increase sales.

Even if sales were rotten, I don't believe they would broadcast it to their customers. Really would not serve as an enticement for others to start or continue doing business.

De'Lores

On Sun May 28, ChuckG wrote
---------------------------
>>>When asked why the change of business policy, he responded that the funeral directors "just didn't get it".

>   I am surprised that White Light is now finding this to be the case.  I spoke with them at some length when they itroduced their new product at the NFDA convention in Boston. They said that their caskets were being extremely well received by the industry, particularly considering that New England is one of the most traditionally oriented parts of the country.   I have heard nothing but positive remarks from my colleagues since that time.  Their coverage in the industry press, as well as the mainstream press has been fantastic too.
>  
>   When I spoke with my Artcasket supplier about two months ago, they said that sales were going reasonably well for a product of this type.  They have even recently expanded their selection to include several more designs, as well as those already offered.
>  
>   I hope that White Light's new attitude isn't a sign that they aren't in it for the long run.  It would make me uncomfortable selling one of these units on a pre-need basis.

>ChuckG


Message cf577c41CZt-3804-589+00.htm, number 271, was posted on Wed May 31 at 09:49:31
in reply to d1fd3011PRl-3804-175+00.htm

Re^6: fancy urns too, these boots...

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


weren't made for walking!!
209.68.195.162/ofsales/product.asp?dept%5Fid=2&sku=013

And excuse me, what in the WORLD's difference does it make, if  the
seller is a licensed funeral director, or a casket store, selling
this product over the internet to strangers, for delivery to a funeral home????  Only about $4,000 or better 209.68.195.162/ofsales/product.asp?dept%5Fid=7&sku=C01
so the f.d. doesn't do embalming anymore, or arrangements, (gave it all up maybe)but now just has a casket store....give me a break!
He/she is now a true retailer, just like they were when they had all of the other trappings.......what is all of this excitement about?
So what, I pay $90.00 to a broker and get any product I want, Batesville, etc......they know the writing is on the wall, the broker is just making money while he  can. The future is here and that licensed paperwork means nothing for retailing!!
This retailer's (err, funeral director's) FAQ page
onlinefunerals.com/faq.htm  but they could have gone alittle further - so people wouldn't have to look up (what is the amount of ashes - approx. 12 lbs?) How many measurement units in size c.u. is the average person reduced to?? etc...


Message ce9cf221RN9-3805-503-00.htm, number 272, was posted on Thu Jun 1 at 08:26:39
De'Lores...

robin
jtbod1@netscape.net


The reason I seem to "pontificate" is that I've got a money tied up in this biz.  I will, as of July 1, provide the capital for a retail outlet.  I will not work at or manage the operation (in any case, it is about 1000 miles from home).  

If anyone cares, the ups-and-downs of the DCI can make you a lot of money.  I shorted the SRV, STEI public funeral stocks (and won big-time), had investment $ in a funeral home that sold, in the good ol' days, for 8X EBIDTA, and, of course, lost most of my shirt with Loewen a year ago.  But, I'm still way ahead, and see more opportunities.  To wit:  the retail outlets can make money if marketed correctly.  Most are undercapitalized and appear, to many laypeople, that they're about to go out of business "at any time".  I have the $$ to do it right.  Yes, I have a licensed f.d. under the wing of my investment, and I will put BCC in the showroom, among others.  I am most aware of the cremation statistics (I get updates from CANA re the state I will do business in), and will offer some upper-end Wilbert product as well as the usual array of competitive merchandise.  

Thus, I play three dimensionally:  retail, funeral home, and public securities.

It's a game, but I have strong opinions.  Re my comments of the artcasket.com thing, they were not directed at you, and perhaps you interpreted a bit harshly.  In any case, I continue to loathe the frequent b.s. that goes on between the two factions of f.d's and retail operations.  That's all.  I like facts.  I like making a lot of money.

Best of luck to you in your company, and I'll provide a link to my new investment in a few weeks.

Cheers!


Message 404f56e1D26-3805-841-00.htm, number 273, was posted on Thu Jun 1 at 14:01:40
Treasurer's Position Open

laura wend
laurawen@bignet.net


As of July 1, 2000, the NCRA treasurer's post will be available.  If any current member is interested in filling the position please submit your name to me at Laurawen@bignet.net. Thank you.

Message 1804fc75QIu-3805-1274-00.htm, number 274, was posted on Thu Jun 1 at 21:15:07
A Note to Robin

Samuel K. Young
gj90@netscape.net


I also am a funeral director that lends my "professional license" to a company of which I am a minor owner.  There are many methods to earn a decent living.  I do not consider my obtaining BCC or York or Aurora any violation of the "rules".  Rather, I take advantage of the loosely worded text that the public relations guy from BCC provided a casket store as of late and I believe was printed here or on another web-site.  As you are going to, I will make money from both ends.  I will not lose money in your gambling with Service Corp, however.  So, I just wanted to say I respect your savvy and you are with my wishes to succeed.  Good luck, and please continue your intelligent contributions to the many funeral service sites on this Internet.

Sam K.  


Message 98a3c94az5a-3806-346-00.htm, number 275, was posted on Fri Jun 2 at 05:46:39
ROBIN

competitive caskets inc.
jjjgjs@aol.com


GOOD LUCK !! READING ALL YOUR POSTS ON HERE ......LOOKS LIKE YOU WILL DO VERY WELL!!!HOPE YOUR NEW STORE WILL BE IN NEW JERSEY! GEORGE

Message cf5685eeCZt-3806-518+00.htm, number 276, was posted on Fri Jun 2 at 08:39:38
in reply to 98a3c94az5a-3806-346-00.htm

R/or anyone, on steel thickness.....

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


On Fri Jun 2, competitive caskets inc. wrote
--------------------------------------------
>GOOD LUCK !!
---Ditto!
Now, too, since I have your attention, and you seem to research very well (couldn't find much myself) can I "pick your brain" on an issue?

Trying to determine the dif/.in yrs between the 18 gauge steel casket
and the 20 g. steel (time length) for my own personal info.

I know that the measure of the thickness is gauged by:
(to layman terms)however many pcs of that same gauge steel it would take to make an inch. (20g is 20 pc of that same gauge pieces of steel to make up one inch)  But, question number one, do we have anything common (like a license plate say) that we all know and can compare it to- how thick is that stand/USA license plate?


www.virtualfuneral.com/sfhfaq.htm#What is a 18 Gauge Steel Casket
www.kfhinc.com/metal.htm
--example of measurements put another way -...."
are all .050" aluminum and one .100" bronze
    Chris - Can you translate that .050" into a guage for steel?
    Wray - .050 is almost 16 GA steel thickness(.054")
    Chris - Okay and the bronze is almost 12 ga. but not quite.

                        0.0625-inch (16-guage) wall thickness for mild-steel
---
The only other thing I could find that everyone might be familiar
with (and had information on the thickness of the steel, lasting underground)

Underground steel fuel oil tanks
                  Standard oval 275 and 330 gallon 12-gauge single-wall steel tanks. These
                  tanks have a one year replacement guarantee. In addition, we have a new
                  Roth double-wall rectangular tank. There are over 30 million of these tanks
                  in use in Europe. They have a full 10-year warranty, including $1 million of
                  environmental clean up coverage.

                  The life expectancy of underground oil tanks depends upon many factors,
                  including the thickness of the steel, the type of fill material, the presence of
                  ground water and the level of electrical activity in the ground. We have
                  seen 10-year-old tanks which are in very bad condition. On the other
                  hand, we have seen 50-year-old tanks which are as good as the day they
                  were installed.

                  What are the chances that my tank is leaking?

                  A recent independent study of buried tanks in the Northeast found that less
                  than 2/10 of 1% of the tanks are leaking. However, because of high water
                  tables, the percentage of leaking tanks in Sussex County seems to be
                  somewhat higher.
----Question number two....
Does anyone have any idea of the length of time - given the same ground conditions, that the extra gauge steel unit would last in the ground over the thinner one? Or rather, the 18 gauge steel casket over the 20 gauge casket?

For my part of infor contributition....my husband has had in his backgound, many (over 20) years worked with steel, as a fabricator, welder and was certified both horizontal and vertical fabricator / welder (when he used to work with a firm that did highway bridges)so he knows steel. But all he could offer me, "The difference in the gauge of steel, no matter if it is 16 gauge, or 18, or 20 gauge, is so slight,  the eye cannot tell the difference by just looking at it, to guess which one is thicker."  And in response to my question, how much longer would the thicker (since it is so little thicker really) would last underground?? "Not really sure, maybe 5 years?"
Anyone correct or add to this, these thoughts???

 



Message cf5687c7LmM-3807-1269-00.htm, number 277, was posted on Sat Jun 3 at 21:09:41
Refunds from cemetery for plastic caskets

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


Limited time for class action suit!

detnews.com:80/2000/oakland/0006/01/c04-65704.htm

and
Spokane.net - Abe Lincoln casket replica knocks 'em dead
www.spokane.net
also
Different field, same idea - same threats, same results (buyers have supply and save thousands)

                    DaimlerChrysler joins GM, Ford in
                    warning dealers away from Internet
                    brokers
detnews.com:80/2000/autos/0005/30/autos-64194.htm
......   Penske controls 117 dealerships in 17 states, and those
                    dealerships will become the preferred provider of vehicles to
                    CarsDirect. Penske, well known in the auto industry, says he's
                    spoken with Ford about their warning, and that CarsDirect will
                    pass muster.
(end copy)
If I am not mistaken, Penske also dabbles in the death care industry....


Message cf5687c7CZt-3807-1279+00.htm, number 278, was posted on Sat Jun 3 at 21:19:11
in reply to cf2489c9ImK-3795-610+00.htm

Re: FTC Funeral Rule Violators

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


(moved from dead/deleted thread)

Our news release of the same frop page we just put up - from post back on May 1st, and photo of one
of the stock cars we sponser near bottom of page, center
search.news.yahoo.com/search/news?p=frop&hc=0&hs=1

ps. Because we do car shows and such, word must be getting around-
someone called from Ca. today, wants to buy a fiberglass casket to
make the "Munster's Drag-u-la Hot Rod casket" take off from the t.v.
show to enter all over in car shows, hot rod exhibts, parades, etc. Seems he tried two funeral homes to
buy the casket, and they told him they couldn't sell him a casket unless someone died......(I've seen
them used in car show entries before-
tastefully done, so you might see A Team Master's name on this unit
as partly a sponsor too, great advertisement!)I'll put up a photo if it turns out that way.
Thanks for news on White Light De'Lores, perhaps going to get the
Last Ride casket that has the winning flags on it....

(copied also)

And, is this for real?
www.summum.org/mummification/arrange/costs.htm


           Summum Mummificationsm
           COSTS as of January 1998


           Memorial Services

                Memorial/funeral services as detailed in your Last Will and Testament.
                Contact the funeral home of your choice and develop a list of the services
                you desire. By law, funeral homes are required to give you current prices
                over the telephone. These services may take place prior to the
                Mummification process or upon the return of your Mummy to its final resting
                place.

                Cost: $5,000.00 and up

           Transportation

                Mummification is performed in Salt Lake City, Utah, hence, we must
                transport your body to and from Salt Lake via air transportation.

                Cost: $5,000.00 and up

           Mummification

                Mummification services in Salt Lake City (time and materials).

                Cost: $12,000.00

           Mummiform

                Plain Bronze Mummiform, Egyptian motif.

                Cost: $36,000.00

           Mausoleum

                Mausoleum space is contracted between you and a cemetery.

                Cost: $5,000.00 and up

           TOTAL:

                $63,000.00 +

                Note: the price of your funeral or memorial service, mausoleum, and
                transportation can vary considerably.


           « Arrangements
           « Summum Mummification  
Pets start at about $14,000.00


Message cf568422CZt-3812-994-00.htm, number 279, was posted on Thu Jun 8 at 16:34:27
...time to pass along a little seriousness and a lot of levity.

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


WHAT IS A LIFETIME GUARANTEE ON A CASKET?

                           I love this letter from Shannon in Kentucky. It illustrates what
                           happens to the bereaved at the hands of 'death dealers.'

                           . . . And Does It Come In Designer Colors?

                           Upon reading "Today's Flight Plan", I came across another
                           thought that stupefies me. Over the past few years, I have had the
                           unpleasant task of making funeral arrangements for my family
                           members; my father, sister, grandfather and grandmother. As I
                           browsed through the casket room of our local mortuary I couldn't
                           help but notice the marketing techniques. The first caskets are of
                           heavy metal, usually bronze and carry hefty price tags. The prices
                           of caskets get lower or cheaper (if one can call them cheap) as
                           one walks toward the back of the display room. Those in the back
                           are modest, fiber board covered with some flocked velvet pattern
                           in a fuchsia color and a flat top ...like you see in the movies for a
                           pauper's funeral. (Yuck, very depressing) Who would ever select
                           that kind of a container for a loved one? In a small town, the type
                           of casket your family picks is a status symbol. However, I
                           couldn't help paying attention to one of the selling points of some
                           Batesville caskets. They are very good,.....they have a box
                           springs and mattress, not to mention a LIFETIME GUARANTEE.

                           During my times of grief, I never asked what the Hell that was
                           supposed to mean. On looking back, it's certainly something to
                           ponder. I thought you might add that to your list of ridiculous
                           warnings and comments that are posted on many products. What
                           is a LIFETIME GUARANTEE ON A CASKET? I'm very
                           serious.....check it out. Just for your info.... a note from
                           Kentucky.....your loyal fan, Shannon

                           Dear Shannon, Anyone who'd been......

www.mckuen.com/flights/270899.htm

----Big guys eat the little guys ----
www.slugwire.org/weekly/archives/98April30/death.html
---- They need to please their bosses...(and learn sales techniques
"A Quiet walk, Trust the funeral director?"
members.tripod.co.uk/funeral/page6.html


Message cf5687e9CZt-3814-1386+00.htm, number 280, was posted on Sat Jun 10 at 23:06:28
in reply to cf568422CZt-3812-994-00.htm

they thought it serious....

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


"My work is always about issues,"
                        he said. "Whatever I find disturbing
                        or full of hypocrisy as I
                        self-righteously perceive it."


www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,36337,00.html                                  


                      Media
                      - - - - - - - - - - - -


                      Stupid death tricks

www.salon.com/business/feature/2000/05/31/deathhoax/index.html

And they fell for it, hook - line and sinker

www.joeyskaggs.com/html/final.html


Message 98a3cf4fz5a-3817-378-00.htm, number 281, was posted on Tue Jun 13 at 06:18:29
ROBIN

competitive caskets inc.
jjjgjs@aol.com


WHAT STATE WILL YOUR STORE BE IN?????GEORGE

Message cf5686dbCZt-3818-644+00.htm, number 282, was posted on Wed Jun 14 at 10:44:49
in reply to 98a3cf4fz5a-3817-378-00.htm

Request for prayers.....

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


I don't know if she will kill me for telling you all.
Robin is ill (treated for cancer, but over with step 1)
Here is a really nice profile of her
profiles.yahoo.com/jenny_the_bod
(Do a search on the SCI stockboard at yahoo (jenny handle above) to read her story if you are interested) But, please add her name to your prayer list for a fast, speedy and complete recovery.
Looking to hear her remarks, even if they are (what was that word I looked up ?Ponicated...something ;-)
Your buddy Robin - Always the Best...,BB

Message 9efc41adYfJ-3818-911-00.htm, number 283, was posted on Wed Jun 14 at 15:11:25
Franchise vs independent

Omie Crockett
xpressrefund@earthlink.net


We are in the process of entering the retail casket business.  We are considering whether to approach this venture through a franchise or to independently start the business ourselves. Any feedback would be most appreciative.

Message cf6614a2DFT-3818-1013+00.htm, number 284, was posted on Wed Jun 14 at 16:53:32
in reply to cf5686dbCZt-3818-644+00.htm

Re: Request for prayers.....

Ender
ender4283@hotmail.com


I do not personally know Robin. I have however, followed her posts on this and many other boards. I admire her intelligence and tenacity.

Robin I wish you a full and speedy recovery.

Ender


Message cdbcc524z5a-3819-341-00.htm, number 285, was posted on Thu Jun 15 at 05:41:08
ROBIN-

competitive caskets inc.
jjjgjs@aol.com


ROBIN--ALL THE POST I HAVE READ ON HERE---NOTHING WILL DEFEAT YOU-NOTHING!!! HOPE AND PRAY YOU ARE BACK HERE SOON! WE ALL MISS YOU! GEORGE

Message cf56865dLmM-3819-743-00.htm, number 286, was posted on Thu Jun 15 at 12:23:20
Credit union, meeting pl. & Election Judge

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


Good things are taking place in the NCRA, and we welcome our newest members. New business and old business : PPIE7@aol.com - Pat Pierce
              The Casket Store (912) 788-6292 fax: (912) 788-5952
                     3222 Pio Nono Ave Macon, GA 31206 has stepped up to become our Membership associate, for follow up on questions about membership, please contact her. Pat is also drafting a letter to welcome each new member (sending them our by laws also)will contact new stores to inform them of our association, etc.

Laura Wend (our Tres. for many years) has many things going on, and has received offers from other long standing store members to accecpt the Tres. position (until our vote from our Sept. metting)and is compling a report to show the balances & expenses of the membership funds.

After vacations and other areas that needed attention, Thelma  of PeachTree casket is getting the draft together by the end of this month for the newsletter (mailed to our members)if you have any news or ideas to be included, please let her know at Secretary
                                Thelma Jaco TMOflash@aol.com
                             Peachtree Caskets
                         3514 Chamblee Tucker Rd,
                             Atlanta, Ga 30341
                    Phone: 770-952-2753 Fax: 770-457-5597

Neded - Important position filled by member who will step up to be our Elections Judge.  As our by laws state, at least 45 days prior to our annual meeting that will take place the third week end in September (between 9/15 & 9/17/2000) (location needs to be choosen also, by vote as will be detailed in our newsletter)any member that desires to fill any elected position will submit their name to the Elections Judge. At least 30 days prior to the meeting the Elections Judge shall prepare a ballot listing the canidates in alphabectical order and shall mail this ballot to all active members via US mail. Any member not attending the meeting may vote (see by laws for the rest of this news.)
Please email me here at casketstores@email.com to fill the Elections Judge position.

Working on added benefits for our members, the NARDA Credit Union has forwarded information for our membership to join. Many benefits (no matter what state you are in) for owners and their employees. This will be forwarded also - please email for this package. Contact person, Bryan, called to say they will travel to our meeting to go over all of the credit union news . They are a member of The NARDA (North American Retailer Dealer's Association)www.narda.com/ who we have also been speaking with.
Another assoc. The NRF for National, also has a list of each  state  has a retailer's association that each member might want to check into. They help retailers, and spread the news about your store.  www.nrf.com/dir/list.htm

A note to Robin: Nice pic, nice all round person and sure do wish you full recovery.
A note about the fran. vs. not - this is something you would need to speak with them about, then do your homework, as it doesn't work out the same for everyone.


Message d8118622RQN-3821-521-00.htm, number 287, was posted on Sat Jun 17 at 08:41:26
legalities in colorado

Ron Stern
immunezone@juno.com


Does anyone know if it is legal to open a discount business in Colorado?  Also, are there any existing businesses that offer help or assistance with opening such an enterprize?  (franchise or biz op).

Message cf5687e5CZt-3821-660+00.htm, number 288, was posted on Sat Jun 17 at 11:00:26
in reply to d8118622RQN-3821-521-00.htm

Re: legalities in colorado

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


Information on the states that have/had restritctions can be found at www.casketstores.com/ncra.htm
Also Ron, I gotta tell you, I think most retailers are VERY helpful to each other,  and any comptitivness among us is far exagerated (to make up look bad?)But, as any business, it needs to be treated as such, and before I shared much infomation with someone - I'd have more than just one of those freebie email addys. There are a few sources you can go to - and yes the franchise is a way to consider (costly and mostly hassle free)
Your determination, extensive homework research, access to cash flow, plans and follow thru on them, & a giving sincere personality have far more to do with your sucess or not I think, than how you start.

On Sat Jun 17, Ron Stern wrote
------------------------------
>Does anyone know if it is legal to open a discount business in Colorado?  Also, are there any existing businesses that offer help or assistance with opening such an enterprize?  (franchise or biz op).


Message cf2488b0ImK-3823-719+00.htm, number 289, was posted on Mon Jun 19 at 11:59:07
in reply to d8118622RQN-3821-521-00.htm

Re: legalities in colorado

ValDan
oldeworldcasket@aol.com


If I'm not mistaken, I believe that Colorado is the ONLY state in the US where you DON'T need a license to operate a funeral home, let alone a casket store - if anyone knows otherwise - please inform, but I'm sure I read this recently when checking various state licensing requirements.

Message cf5686e4LmM-3823-1042+00.htm, number 290, was posted on Mon Jun 19 at 17:22:00
in reply to cf2488b0ImK-3823-719+00.htm

Re^2: legalities in colorado

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


That is correct - see this site.
www.state.co.us/gov_dir/oed/industry/Mortuary.html
There are a few stores in that state already.

Message cf577c52LmM-3824-631+00.htm, number 291, was posted on Tue Jun 20 at 10:32:41
in reply to d8118622RQN-3821-521-00.htm

Not tooting his own horn

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


I will expand on it for him. Ron is an (impressive) author
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0944711006/qid=961513328/sr=1-3/102-5343185-8491304
and perhaps is looking into writing a book all about the start up of a casket store.
I think there might be a market for this, does anyone else? The NCRA gets several email asking assistance in that field (we can not help). Instead of someone going thru all of it in the "school of hard knocks" perhaps this might be the ticket. Anyone have any ideas for him?  Use his email immunezone@juno.com  and let him know.
I talked with one of the newer suppliers (Canada) and they (just ONE supplier) are selling to over 380 stores. We all know it is a growing field. See the rerun on 20/20 over last week end about the abuse?
And the Mississippi case is in the hands of the Federal judge, they are looking for a ruling by early July. (From another supplier, that is involved in the above suit, they are very excitied about it and have spent over $60,000.00 in legal fees on this one case, and when they win, they get their atty/court fees back, to go onto the next state. 20/20 has already commited to do a follow up and expose these (weak)arguments the funeral industry tried to  use, why retailers shouldn't be able to open a casket store.

Dealer Pricing

Greenwood Casket Co
greenwood@writeme.com


Hello,
We have trimmed our inventory and trimmed our prices to offer you the products that we believe the casket store customer is looking for, at a price that you can make some money on.

We know in this industry, that one should purchase a casket according to it's visual aesthetics, matching these to the personality of the deceased. After all, this product is used for less than 6 hours on average, and then it goes in the ground. Spending ridiculous amounts on supposed "high quality" caskets goes counter to the message we are trying to convey to our consumers. We want to offer a beautiful product at an exceptional price. We believe we have the product line that fits this description.

*www.cableregina.com/business/jbyggdin/order.htm Retail prices
Please check out our dealer prices (*email for the url)

We believe you will be most satisfied with the quality and prices we are offering.

Thank you,

John Byggdin

President
Greenwood Casket Co.
16 Porter Bay
Emerald Park, SK, Canada
S4L 1B9
Ph:  306 522 9966
Fax: 306 522 9964
email: greenwood@writeme.com

web site: www.freefuneralhelp.com

(*edited by webmaster - as this is a non member, wholesale url advertised only to Dealers by email request)

[ This message was edited on Tue Jun 20 by webmaster ]


Message cf56870cCZt-3824-1084-00.htm, number 293, was posted on Tue Jun 20 at 18:03:46
group helping cover burial costs for victims

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


Good deeds spread fast and help those in need....

dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ao/20000614/cr/victims_group_helps_cover_funeral_costs_1.html

And seeing casketstores ranked on this site, means there are 541,054
beneath us as webs most linked site ;-) -----The domain: casketstores.com, is ranked #87717 out of 628771 domains in the
     WebsMostLinked.com database interesting site, showing the highest ranked websmostlinked.com/display.cgi?101

And a very worthwhile site
www.savinggraves.com/


Message 3f0fec95VE6-3827-799-00.htm, number 294, was posted on Fri Jun 23 at 13:19:19
Research for The Learning Channel

Shana Vickers
shanavickers@hotmail.com


I am doing some research on a documentary about death for The Learning Channel.  We have historical drawings and artifacts which show that, in the past, coffins were constructed to prevent someone from being mistakenly buried alive (i.e. with some sort of device that would enable the victim to notify those above ground).  We are searching for an actual replica of one of these coffins to include in the film.  Does anyone know of a source where we can find such historical coffins still preserved, or anyone who might still construct them?

Message cf568626CZt-3828-697+00.htm, number 295, was posted on Sat Jun 24 at 11:39:51
in reply to 3f0fec95VE6-3827-799-00.htm

"any day above ground..."

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


..is a good day" Is part of the The National Museum of Funeral History, motto;

You didn't say what state you are in, but here are a few links to check out. Let us know when you are going to do this pc, and even-
if you are going to do an up to date "Where to go in today's market place for all the newest kinds of caskets available, the NCRA has a store directory for each state, and many page of information at www.casketstores.com"
links to see, archive.dallasnews.com/cgi-bin/display.cgi?id=3954def1322e4Mpqaweb1P11015&doc=results.html
www.crai-ky.com/reports/
www.houstonpress.com/extra/urbanadventures/stories/ua_070998.html (copied below)






                                                 
 The Rite Stuff
 As they say at the National Museum of Funeral History,
 "any day above ground is a good one."
 By Bob Ruggiero

          A video at the beginning of the tour says,
          "We're all beings that will someday expire."
          Thus placed in the proper frame of mind, you're
          ready to explore the National Museum of
          Funeral History, a bizarre but compelling
 collection of artifacts about shuffling off this mortal coil.

 "A lot of people don't know what to expect; they either
 make a big joke of it or are scared. But once they're
 inside, they see how cool it is. They know [death's] part
 of our culture," says Keven Boetticher, the museum's Gen
 X manager. "Some people expect to see dead bodies all
 over the place. But it's not that [somber]. We have two
 or three senior-citizen groups a week that come out, and
 they joke about it with each other." The black comedy
 spills over into the gift shop, which sells golf balls
 emblazoned with the image of an old-time hearse and beer
 coozies bearing the inscription "Every day above ground is
 a good one." Boetticher says he's fresh out of the golf
 clubs with the coffins on the putting ends, but more are
 expected soon.

 Once you get past the initial creepiness of sharing space
 with all those hearses and coffins -- including children's
 caskets with see-through windows, often built by fathers
 as a form of grief therapy -- you'll find a fascinating
 history about how we Americans have confronted death.
 Some funereal facts: Services were held in the family
 home until the advent of the modern mortuary in the
 1920s; a 19th-century widow was expected to wear black
 for two years after her husband's death; a girl who'd lost
 a parent could expect to have all of her regular toys
 exchanged for a contemplative-looking "mourning doll"; it
 was perfectly acceptable to hang a photo of your
 deceased Uncle Zed in the living room, but this snapshot
 would be taken after Zed was dead, baby.

 The 20,000-square-foot memorabilia mausoleum even
 owns a triple casket custom-made for a distraught
 Midwestern couple who planned a murder/suicide following
 the death of their child. They eventually overcame their
 grief, and the wife even asked for a refund 20 years later;
 presumably, that check's still in the mail. Speaking of
 unusual coffins, the museum has the most complete
 collection of Ghanaian "fantasy designer" coffins in the
 U.S. These colorful folk-art boxes are designed to reflect
 the status of the deceased. A Ghanaian cattleman might
 be laid to rest in a coffin shaped like a black-and-white
 bull; a fisherman might spend eternity inside a large purple
 lobster complete with whiskers and claws.

 Car buffs will gape at the museum's collection of
 immaculate hearses, including a 1924 Model TT Hoover
 and a 1929 Studebaker Superior, and the only remaining
 1916 Packard funeral bus. This black-curtained vehicle
 had room for 20 mourners, pallbearers and the deceased,
 but it was quickly taken out of circulation following a
 disaster at a San Francisco service; scaling a tough hill,
 the bus sent mourners tumbling over pallbearers and spat
 out the casket, which did the same with its body.

 There are special exhibits -- Abraham Lincoln's
 cross-country funeral trek; "Funerals of the Famous" (JFK,
 Nixon, Eva Gabor) -- and a short history of embalming,
 which includes a body table and fluid containers (they
 bear an unsettling resemblance to that stainless-steel
 coffee pot in your office). "This is a very nice display,"
 says Brock Baker, an ebony-suited embalmer from Kansas
 and a dead ringer for actor Martin Landau. "This is like
 coming home for me. I used to watch my dad embalm
 bodies when I was little."

 Frank Sinatra -- now a candidate for an NMFH exhibit of
 his own -- once opined, "You gotta love livin', because
 dyin's a pain in the ass." True, but at least this brush with
 the inevitable doesn't require a handkerchief or a barf bag.

 First appeared in the July 9, 1998 issue

                                                                         
                                                                         
                                                   Illustration by Robert Kopecky


                                                                         
                                                     This adventure has been
                                                            rated
                                                             

                                                   

                                                   Do the rite thing
                                                   quicktime movie -- requires QT
                                                   3.0 or higher

                                                   Tales from the crypt
                                                   quicktime movie -- requires QT 3.0
                                                   or higher

                                                                         
                                                   The National Museum of Funeral
                                                   History

                                                   Open 10 a.m. to 4 p.m.
                                                   weekdays;
                                                   noon to 4 p.m. weekends.

                                                   415 Barren Springs, (281)
                                                   876-3063

                                                   $5; $3 for kids under 12 and
                                                   seniors.

                                                                           
                          « return to Urban Adventures »
                                                                   
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                          © NewTimes, Inc. All Rights Reserved



On Fri Jun 23, Shana Vickers wrote
----------------------------------
>I am doing some research on a documentary about death for The Learning Channel.  We have historical drawings and artifacts which show that, in the past, coffins were constructed to prevent someone from being mistakenly buried alive (i.e. with some sort of device that would enable the victim to notify those above ground).  We are searching for an actual replica of one of these coffins to include in the film.  Does anyone know of a source where we can find such historical coffins still preserved, or anyone who might still construct them?


Message cf577ca5LmM-3830-1241-00.htm, number 296, was posted on Mon Jun 26 at 20:42:41
Site for celebrating life, not fearing death.

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


The url below is an interesting site, and contacted us to add our link to their links page. (copy)
           
      It's only natural to fear death and the Great Unknown of our
      existence after life. But since death is inevitable, many writers, poets,
      musicians, and filmmakers have spent a lot of energy dealing with
      this topic; some with reverence, others without. This site primarily
      examines the second group. (Although, I try to do so without
      disrespecting the solemn dignity of the deceased).
www.nejman.com/todiefor/index.htm


nejman.com/todiefor/links.htm

In the mailbag (if interested, reply direct)


------Original Message------
From: "Ricky Koon" rkoon@netvigator.com To: casketstores@email.com
Sent: June 26, 2000 8:33:58 AM GMT
Subject: Funeral Accessary Offer


Dear Sir
We are manufactory of Funeral Accessaries in China, We produce Funeral Sheet, Burial Garment, Wooden Ashes Casket & Artificial Flower.
We looking for business partner, in case you have any friend interested
to import above items from China, Please introduce us and contact us by return e-mail.
Regards Ricky Koon

And also BIG congrads are in order ,going out to: Pat Pierce ( of the Casket Store, Ga, our Membership Associate,) and Bob White were married  June 23, 2000 in a private ceremony at Ebenezer United Methodist Church

And a copy of an interview with a retailer:
 


 CASKET DISCOUNTER FINDING A NICHE
 (The Record (Bergen County, NJ))



 CASKET DISCOUNTER FINDING A NICHE -- PARAMUS SHOP   SELLS DIRECTLY TO FAMILIES

 By DAVID GOWRIE, Staff Writer
 Date: 03-15-2000, Wednesday
 Section: BUSINESS
 Edition: All Editions -- Four Star B, Three Star B,
 Two Star P, One Star B
 Column: BUSINESS Q&A

 Andrew Paer believes the cost of a final resting place   should not be   exorbitant, nd, it seems, legislators agree.

 After decades, funeral homes' stranglehold on casket  sales was   loosened when the  Federal Trade Commission ushered in  new legislation in  1994.

 The Funeral Rule, as it is known, prohibits mortuary  directors from  refusing or  charging a fee to handle a casket bought outside the funeral home.

 The promise of capitalizing on a new era of  competition prompted  Paer to open Casket  Discounters in Paramus last month.


 Selling directly to the public from his showroom on  Route 17, Paer  offers caskets and  other funeral-related products at  prices he says  undercut mortuary offerings by 50 percent to 80  percent.

 Paer delivers, free of charge, directly to the customer's designated funeral home.

 The nation's 22,000 mortuaries are not concerned by  the relatively  new phenomenon of  retail casket stores, says Kelly  Smith, spokeswoman  for the National Funeral Directors Association.

 "Consumers have become more interested in the  personalized services  that only a  funeral director can offer," Smith says.
 "They're less   interested in whether they have a beautiful casket."  Smith says the average funeral home price for a metal  casket is $2,100, whereas his average price for a similar casket is $1,500.

 Q. What merchandise do you offer?
 A. All different varieties of caskets, including metal, wood, bronze, semiprecious, religious, and personalized caskets, as  well as children's caskets. I am also involved with urns for cremation.

 Q. Who are your suppliers?
 A. All my suppliers are American-based. I have  exclusive, private-label   arrangements with them.

 Q. Do you provide delivery services to funeral homes?
 A. Yes. I use common carrier systems, including major  trucking  companies. In New Jersey, I own my own trucking  company. Depending on    the urgency and logistics, we can deliver within 24  hours by ground or  air.

 Q. Where are your customers located, and where are the   majority of   caskets being  shipped?
 A. Most of my clientele has been in New Jersey up to  this point. But I  expect to expand into other geographic markets. I do  have a Web site,  and I advertise in newspapers.

 Q. Are you competing with funeral homes?
 A. Yes. I'm competing with literally everybody in the  funeral industry.

 Q. What makes your business unique?
 A. My business is unique because of the recent  opportunities that have  been afforded by the changes in the law. A lot of  people haven't   ventured into this.

 I'm set up as a retailer of funeral-related  merchandise. But  indirectly, I am  consulting people. When they come to  me, the first    thing we do is literally discuss the laws. After that,  we discuss what  their requirements are and how I could possibly help  them.

 Q. What is the price range for your merchandise?
 A. I give people a discount anywhere from 50 percent  to 80 percent of   what a funeral home charges. Depending on the quality  of the component,  caskets range from $399 to about $14,000.

 Q. How are you able to offer those discounts?
 A. I have lower overhead. It's my own business; I'm  not owned by a   public company, which a lot of funeral homes are now.  So I don't have  the cost structure of a major public conglomerate. I  can pass those   savings directly on to the consumer.

 Q. Are there other costs, such as delivery charges or  sales tax?
 A. I don't charge for delivery, but there is sales  tax, which is 6   percent of the purchase price of the casket. In  respect to the consumer,  I may absorb that cost, depending on the individual's  situation and   budget.

 Q. Do you provide other services offered by funeral  homes?
 A. Certain services that they provide only they can do in their particular environment, such as embalming. There are  regulations  applicable to those services. I don't offer any of those [services] because that's not my focus.

 Q. What investment did it take to start your business?

 A. I'd rather not disclose the exact amount. But I did it all myself. I  self-funded this.

 Q. Will this be a profitable business?
 A. I think it could be a profitable business, but it's  going to take   time.

 Illustrations/Photos: PHOTO - THOMAS E. FRANKLIN /
 STAFF PHOTOGRAPHER - Andrew
 Paer, president of Casket Discounters in Paramus, says
 his low overhead allows
 him to charge less for caskets.

 Keywords: DEATH. EQUIPMENT. STORE. PARAMUS
(end copy) hmmmm, NFDA isn't "worried?" Not factual or else there would not be all the
low blows. WV is submitting paperwork on the casket store issues now also. More later.


Message cdbcc59dz5a-3831-1063-00.htm, number 297, was posted on Tue Jun 27 at 17:43:10
FUNERAL RULE

competitive caskets inc.
jjjgjs@aol.com


ANYONE HAVE ANY INFO?
ALSO:GOOD LUCK GOES OUT TO PAT PIERCE-NEW "MEMBERSHIP CHAIRWOMEN"
WE ARE ALL HERE TO HELP IF YOU NEED US!

Message cf5684cdCZt-3832-594-00.htm, number 300, was posted on Wed Jun 28 at 09:54:43
keepin 'em honest..

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


There's a new VA cemetery opening near us. I found out the bid was going out to furnish and place concrete grave liners - a one yr. contract w/4 renewable 1 yr terms. approx. 1000 needed the first yr, up to 1500 by the last yr. (not counting small/oversize) So it would average out about 3 a day. But because there is no way to determine how many might be needed in any given timeframe, you had to be ready to furnish/install 0-24 per day (over 3 is good profit)
Our supplier is over 220 miles away, a grave line weighs over 1800 lbs, and a truck flatbed can only carry 25 at a time. The first trucking co. my supplier contacted wanted $30.00 each to deliver, then I started calling around, found one of the firms we use in our construction co. that would do it for $25.00 if deadhead (special trip), or $17.00 if backhaul (coming back from another delivery, swing over to pick up)(average then would be $21.00 if need /used either)
Still, thought I might make one more call, told the firm I was part of a group of retailers that did trucking (one,few or several) caskets
at a time. perhaps they'd like to quote this delivery and the groups also. (Power purchasing ;-) They came in at a flat rate of $16.40 per unit, whenever needed....great huh? So, I'll send an email out the the
NCRA members and let them know the name of the co. to see if they want to take avantage of this carrier for group low cost delivery.
...But, to get down to the bottom of this, one really needs to know the questions to ask to get all of the correct answers. There was an addem. on the project, I told my supplier (who was putting the bid in - in their name, seeing they had to meet spec. requirements on the grave liners)(we were going to install them )they tried to open it on the VA site, couldn't - he had a friend I guess, try it for him. Looking at it, he said he thought it only detailed the news about the date (once before) extended. So in went the bid (over 1.5 million)and the opening day, found out the addem. was indeed, (although calls were made, no one returned them)about more than the date. It added a new line, to carry the casket & flowers from the shelter (where services are done) to the grave site. So - because of the not acknowledging the addem. and that blank line, the supplier & my bid was thrown out. (unresponesive)The winning firm....over 5 yrs....is over $706,000.00 higher than us. (ugh, that one line item we missed, also allowed him to get $68.00 more per unit = $69,000.00 more income for them (about 20 min. work @) the first yr!! In the Va. cem. it is different, the service is held in a shelter building, people leave, the casket is placed into the grave liner and it is all carried and placed into the openning as one unit) SOOOOOOOOO, if you see that there is any VA cemetery near you, you casket stores, you may do well to look into this opportunity to open up this part of the closed death care industry too. Money to be made there, and the lack of competition has spread into the other areas. Installing a grave liner (once you are set up for it) is not a big deal. It is steady work year round at a gov. cemetery...maybe you should look into it!! If they (the chicken grave liner suppliers near me, worried that the "funeral directors would boycott them..) had only sold to me at the start........I wouldn't be a 'worry' to them ;-/ Whose worred now? Yep, that nearby grave liner suppler because he knows I will bid the project again, this time knowing all the answers, and he will either NOT get it, or if he does, he sure will have to come down on his price by ALOT! He sould have sold to me at the start, and if he did I'd have been a happy camper and not needed to look further. But, since they want to play games, I will go into their court to level the playing field. There is reason for them to try to keep us all out.....
lack of money in their pockets. So they try to intimadate too, Well-
shame on them. This baby ain't running.....and the GROUP NCRA is far stonger as a team, than each one of us ever will be by our selves. And they know that....do you??

Let's keep them all honest - if the competition isn't there - and they aren't afraid of the exposure - public opinion and the FTC funeral rule, I really think that the industry would've headed to far worse than what it is now. I checked the funeral rule news just a few days ago, no new news yet. No however, I feel that the others that bid for any type of work or customer that us "retailers" can do, will be on their toes more, (prices are already being cut back thanks to "us")


Of course, part of getting the right answers is knowing the right questions to ask.......so everyone is/can be a winner.......//copy

TERRIBLE ACCIDENT

In a terrible accident at a railroad crossing, a train smashed into a car
and pushed it nearly four hundred yards down the track. Though no
one was killed, the driver took the train company to court.

At the trial, the engineer insisted that he had given the driver ample
warning by waving his lantern back and forth for nearly a minute.  
He even stood and convincingly demonstrated how he'd done it.  
The court believed his story, and the suit was dismissed.

"Congratulations," the lawyer said to the engineer when it was over.
"You did superbly under cross-examination."

"Thanks," he said, "but he sure had me worried."

"How's that?" the lawyer asked.

"I was afraid he was going to ask if the lantern was lit!"

Submitted by Big5

Send your favorite jokes to mailto:jokes@inc.HumorShack.com
________________________________________________________


Message cf5684d2LmM-3833-743-00.htm, number 301, was posted on Thu Jun 29 at 12:24:51
One in four!

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


IN a very few short years, the selling of caskets outside the mortuary has become very popular. Take the poll here and see the results too, you will be amazed.
www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_4501.html

But, then the funeral industry has seen the writing on the wall, and are they thrying to confuse the public into thinking they are us now? The public has heard  (and "seen" even on reruns ;-)abcnews.go.com/onair/2020/2020_000616_gmab_caskets_feature.html
about the savings, and try to "shop"  but getting this kind of news, it WILL be very limited and NOT to any casket stores that are not part of a high overhead = large price tag at  a licensed funeral home.
site www.zdnet.com/computershopper/stories/reviews/0,7171,2582261,00.html


Least 10 wired industries
www.zdnet.com/pccomp/stories/all/0,6605,2453048,00.html


Message cdbcc12az5a-3834-942-00.htm, number 302, was posted on Fri Jun 30 at 15:41:56
T.V STATION--IMPORTANT

competitive caskets inc.
jjjgjs@aol.com


HI FROM CLIFTON,NJ
I HAVE BEEN CONTACTED BY A MAJOR T.V STATION WHO WANTS AND IS DOING A STORY ON THE FUNERAL RULE RE: FUNERAL HOMES
PLEASE IF YOU HAVE ANY FEED BACK FROM YOUR OLD/NEW CUSTOMERS PLEASE EMAIL ME WITH YOUR NAME-STATE-AND PHONE NUMBER.
THE PRODUCER OF THE STATION WILL CALL YOU DIRECT!
IF ANY QUESTION EMAIL ME !
GEORGE SILVA-COMPETITIVE CASKETS INC!
REMEMBER MORE INFO THE BETTER FOR ALL OF US!!!
HOPE TO HEAR FROM YOU SOON!
HAPPY FOURTH OF JULY TO ALL OF YOU!

Message 98a3cf3dyqP-3834-1252+00.htm, number 303, was posted on Fri Jun 30 at 20:52:08
in reply to cdbcc12az5a-3834-942-00.htm

Re: T.V STATION--IMPORTANT

MIKE FORTUNE
fortune652@aol.com


On Fri Jun 30, competitive caskets inc. wrote
---------------------------------------------
>HI FROM CLIFTON,NJ
>I HAVE BEEN CONTACTED BY A MAJOR T.V STATION WHO WANTS AND IS DOING A STORY ON THE FUNERAL RULE RE: FUNERAL HOMES
>PLEASE IF YOU HAVE ANY FEED BACK FROM YOUR OLD/NEW CUSTOMERS PLEASE EMAIL ME WITH YOUR NAME-STATE-AND PHONE NUMBER.
>THE PRODUCER OF THE STATION WILL CALL YOU DIRECT!
>IF ANY QUESTION EMAIL ME !
>GEORGE SILVA-COMPETITIVE CASKETS INC!
>REMEMBER MORE INFO THE BETTER FOR ALL OF US!!!
>HOPE TO HEAR FROM YOU SOON!
>HAPPY FOURTH OF JULY TO ALL OF YOU!

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Mike Fortune - Precious Memories Casket Company 1-888-291-5862
Located 10 miles outside of Washington D.C was able to save a family $600.00 over the Funeral Home Price on a wood Casket. The Funeral Home was going to give the wife a $200.00 Senior Citizen discount if they brought the casket from them. I saved them $400.00 dollars over the Funeral Home's alleged discount. She went with me and I provide her a Black Cherry Wood casket versus a Poplar they would give her for $600.00 above my price. What would you take a Black Cherry and save $600.00 or a poplar for more.  The funeral personnel were not very happy when I made the delivery. The worker who directed be to the back entrance where deliveries are accepted was very rude and unprofessional. Made because they lost that deal.


Message cf56858cCZt-3834-1260+00.htm, number 304, was posted on Fri Jun 30 at 21:00:00
in reply to 98a3cf3dyqP-3834-1252+00.htm

Re^2: T.V STATION--IMPORTANT

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


Hi George:

Good of you to let us all know. I would sure like to add my 2 cents worth - about how I am restricted from wholesale purchases for some
product, (ie: concrete boxes, vaults & caskets)  A 16 yr old firm
that is used to the ability to purchase whatever, whenever for my
( constructon) firm, that is what burns me the most- that this casket retailing division is not treated fairly and open, above board with wholesale purchase from some!!


the Petition for a National Cemetery Protection Act

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


Hi everyone.

No matter which side of the fence you are on in this death care
industry - funeral director to retailers - this is a site that
all should view and act upon. From just over 150 on June 30th, to over 700 on today, Sat. a day later - it is taking off. Can you send it to a friend or post it somewhere also? I know you feel strongly about the ruin that is going on too. What a shame this wasn't done before.

www.PetitionOnline.com/sg0001/petition.html

 
                                     
             National Cemetery Protection Act


                                       

                       View Current Signatures - Sign the Petition

    To:  United States Congress

    To: The Congress of the United States of America

    We the undersigned citizens, call upon the Congress of the United States of
    America to introduce and pass a National Cemetery Protection Act that would
    ensure the protection and preservation of our nations historic cemeteries by
    defining specific rules and regulations pertaining to

    A) Cemetery Use, Care, Control and Protection, including but not limited to:

    - A mandatory Dusk curfew.
    - The mandatory recording of surveys and plats
    - Record Keeping
    - General cemetery care guidelines (including fences and upkeep)
    - Regulations concerning the use of cemeteries on private land
    - Regulations concerning the access of cemeteries on private land

    B) Restricting, Limiting and Regulating the use of a cemetery, including but
    not limited to:

    - Road/Railroad/Utility construction
    - Establish conditions applying to the sale or transfer of cemetery property
    - Regulations concerning Disinterment, Disentombment and other such removals.
    - Regulations concerning Abandonment and Reburial
    - Transfer of cemetery property from private to public status
    - Restriction on alienation or condemnation

    Such legislation would call for enforceable penalties including but not
    limited to monetary fines and/or jail time.

    Sincerely,

    The Undersigned

                                                   

                            View Current Signatures
                                     


                                     

    The National Cemetery Protection Act Petition to United States Congress was created by Saving
    Graves - supports and encourages the protection, restoration, and preservation of endangered
    cemeteries and written by William Spurlock.  This petition is hosted here at
    www.PetitionOnline.com as a public service. There is no express or implied endorsement of this
    petition by Artifice, Inc. or our sponsors. The petition scripts are created by Mike Wheeler at
    Artifice, Inc.  For Technical Support please use our simple Petition Help form.

                              Send this to a friend

PetitionOnline - DesignCommunity - 3D Designers - Gallery - Architecture - Scrapbook - 3D Developers
                              - Games - Search
www.PetitionOnline.com/sg0001/petition.html
                                          © 1999-2000 Artifice, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.

-------(your email is required, however not shown if you prefer)----
Also related, in the news and ONE of the reasons why the above is needed!
dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000630/re/crime_skynyrd_dc_2.html


Message d01af1256iQ-3836-668-00.htm, number 307, was posted on Sun Jul 2 at 11:08:35
Casket distribution

Mike
mike73coug@yahoo.com


I am writing as a layperson / consumer, as I am not a DCI professonal or retailer.  While I can appreciate that the retail casket movement has probable brought some reform pressure on funeral priceing, the constant whineing one sees about manufacturers controling the distribution of their products is annoying.  Manufacturers and wholsalers frequently place conditions on the pruchase of their products, in many industries.  This is legal, and ought to remain so as long as it doesn't violate anti-trust statutes, I would think.

If you decided you wanted to sell new automobiles, you can't just call up one of the "Big Three" and have them ship you 20 new cars for your showroom.  In my state of Washington, you even have to be liscensed to buy used autos for resale.  I use to work in food animal production and many non-prescription pharmaceuticals were non-the-less available only from liscensed Veterinarians.  Many hair care products are available only from liscensed cosmotoligists.  Irrigation products: many of the big manufacturers distribute different lines and qualities to consumer outlets and building supply stores than they do to liscensed contractors and irrigation dealers.  One of the loudest critics about this here is a contrator as well as a casket retailer.  I don't know about Ohio, but here in Washington she as a liscensed contractor would have access to all kinds of products and wholesale outlets that I as a home fixer upper or even as a small hardware store wouldn't have access to.  Ultimately, the consumer will decide the value of the retailers in the DCI marketplace, and the casket manufacturers shouldn't have to be under any more restrictions than other manufacturers.

And, ultimately, what the consumer really needs isn't cheap caskets, it's more affordable funerals.  It seems to me that the desireable wave of the future will be a liscensed professional funeral service that offers merchandise selection in a "store front" more familiar and comfortable retail like environment that one can drop in at and gain product familiarity, rather than an interior selection room.  They will offer competitive and fair prices on funeral merchandise, including a broader product line, and more units priced under $1,0000, than are typically found in a selection room or from a retailer, and they will offer the full range of death care professional services, from one convenient source.  If the retailers are really interested in helping the consumer, they would either become liscensed professionals, or contract for such services, and offer affordable compleate funeral packages.  That's my "2 cents worth".


Message cf5687ebCZt-3837-35+00.htm, number 308, was posted on Mon Jul 3 at 00:36:00
in reply to d01af1256iQ-3836-668-00.htm

Re: Casket distribution

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


Hi Mike, I agree, I do stomp my foot and I am sure it is annoying sometimes. But, until you can put yourself in my shoes, you'd have
to take my word for it, how it burns one up. ( I think too, if you followed enough to see I am in biz here & more than just retailing, you know I give as good as I get, and am honest. The tricks played in this field, from some of "good old boys" are downright dishonest and hateful" But, things are improving/ even tho others are still trying.
Also, untruths (on some bb there have been malicious , defamatory or relentlessly accusing people of things they did not say or do - childish things to try to discredit others - just because it might make us all look bad) I don't think would happen if it weren't in this field. It is okay to disagree, even to get angry, but to disagree and try to NOT do so hatefully, sure would be a plus for the field.

I have bought prefab concrete catch basins and manholes any day of the week, from the firm I've had a charge with for many years. Then, when I call them up to purchase a concrete grave liner, for our new division over 2 yrs ago, they tell me that they have made a decision to not sell grave liners to only licensed funeral directors. If someone had told you you needed a four yr col/degree to buy this same product you had been buying (but in a different configuration)for several years, a concrete pc, you'd be insulted too. Sure, there may be restrictions on autos, (but it is in writing and freely given, I have yet to EVER get any response in writing, - are they afraid they will give proof to the "anti-trust"? And as for hair dyes, Vets, etc. well, the reason might be consumer saftey. That fails with boxes. And I'm not really up on all the auto dealers, but I think if I came up with enough cash, I could buy an area, to set up shop. So it isn't so errr- AS estricted to sell cars as it is to sell what some call a pc of furniture (know what I mean?)
And yes, the public is deciding, with their feet, and yes, the funeral homes are now starting to have casket stores. AND YES, there is a need for cheaper funerals. But, until all of the public can get straight answers from those trying to keep it all in the dark ages, they need choices. (And there is a lot going on, this is just the tip of the iceburg)But the stomping of the feet that all the "outsiders" are doing is what has made it better so far to date - and has others worried. It might be annoying, but with good cause.

----
 This is legal, and ought to remain so as long as it doesn't violate anti-trust statutes, I would think.

>If you decided you wanted to sell new automobiles, you can't just call up one of the "Big Three" and have them ship you 20 new cars for your showroom.  In my state of Washington, you even have to be liscensed to buy used autos for resale.  I use to work in food animal production and many non-prescription pharmaceuticals were non-the-less available only from liscensed Veterinarians.  Many hair care products are available only from liscensed cosmotoligists.  Irrigation products: many of the big manufacturers distribute different lines and qualities to consumer outlets and building supply stores than they do to liscensed contractors and irrigation dealers.
---Money talks, that's all - >>> they <<<> One of the loudest critics about this here is a contrator as well as a casket retailer.  I don't know about Ohio, but here in Washington she as a liscensed contractor would have access to all kinds of products and wholesale outlets that I as a home fixer upper or even as a small hardware store wouldn't have access to.
----Sounds very unfair too, and if so, burns you doesn't it?

>and they will offer the full range of death care professional services, from one convenient source.
----Kind of like a Consultant huh? Seems there are many now, going into it this way too. People like to know that they are not being told
everything from one side. And are willing to get (pay for) a second opinion, from those OUTSIDE the field. This shouldn't upset those INSIDE -even for the honorable and upstanding ones.
After all, they are being asked to shell out over $6,000-
$10,000.00 for the whole "arrangements." The bad write ups, past disclosers, unfair treatment of retailers & others, give good reason.

> If the retailers are really interested in helping the consumer, they would either become liscensed professionals, or contract for such services, and offer affordable compleate funeral packages.  That's my "2 cents worth".
---Let me mention, there would have been no need for any "others" in the field, it things hadn't gotten out of hand in the first place.
I'm not interested in "becoming" but I have branched out to offer many more services and point people to those more "helping". Things will work out. But until then, (and this may take better than just a generation)there is room for more than just the licensed funeral director in this field - to offer the public "goods".
And we aren't alone---Killing
     Competition
     In The
     Funeral
     Industry
www.ncpa.org/pd/regulat/pd100899c.html
www.gocarolinas.com/news/carolinas/1999/07/27/sc_casketsales.html



Prices To Die For!

ValDan
oldeworldcasket@aol.com


www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/2000-01-13/metro2.html

[ This message was edited on Wed Jul 5 by the author ]


Message cf6614a2DFT-3841-633-00.htm, number 310, was posted on Fri Jul 7 at 10:32:50
Robin has left us

Ender
ender4283@hotmail.com


Just a note to let everyone know some very sad news. The poster known here as Robin has passed away. There was a note on the STEI Yahoo board from here caregiver. She had many friends there, as well as here. You will find the note below. On Yahoo she was know as Jenny_The_Bod or simply JTB. Her real name was Jennifer. 10/24/69 – 7/3/00. Many of us were part of her wonderful “dash.”

Please keep her in your prayers.

I am sorry to report that Jennifer
> passed on peacefully in her sleep
> last night in Minnesota at 9:24 pm.
> She was with her mother and many
> family and friends. She was 30, and died
> of from complications of ovarian cancer.
>
> She has left several letters on her
> computer that we at Coran have been
> asked to print. I will do so in the
> next several days. Services are pri-
> vate and will take place on Wednesday
> evening and Thursday morning. Jennifer
> will be interred at her family cemetary.
> She left me a web
> site that I am to provid information
> on later this week for any messages
> if you would like to do so.
>
> Jennifer was very sick. I know many
> of you wrote nice things and she was
> very awaare of that. From all of us
> who knew her and and cared for her
> and to all you I am sure, she will
> be missed.
>
> She told me to print this below and I
> will copy more in the next days.
>
> I am sorry to tell you this.
>
> A/G
>
> ...............
> To the STEI'ers:
>
> You are precious in my eyes, and honored, and I love you.
>
> Isaiah 43:4
>
> JTB


Message cf568687CZt-3842-690+00.htm, number 311, was posted on Sat Jul 8 at 11:30:32
in reply to c7e3bd19ImK-3839-953+00.htm

Re: Prices To Die For!

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


No, no, no (here are the prices to really die for! - (and seems like
they are up front about it too, not hiding the facts if they are funeral directors owning the "store" or not :/ (over $125,000 - to over $42,857.00 when divided 14 into suggested $60,000.00 - but hey
it seems it can be resold, reused and more. What a life)
(copy)www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/189/nation/Paying_to_go_out_forever_in_styleP.shtml

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paying to go out, forever, in style
By Mary Foster, Associated Press, 7/7/2000


NEW ORLEANS - With its black columns and stained-glass windows, Ruth
Fertel's ultimate retirement spot is stylish for its size.


The granite mausoleum sits on a 27-foot-square plot under moss-draped trees
on the edge of a bayou in Metairie Cemetery. Its ambiance, Fertel says,
will
encourage visitors to linger.


''It's such a beautiful and peaceful spot,'' said Fertel, who is 73. ''I
just know my family is going to love visiting me there.''


The founder of the Ruth's Chris Steakhouse chain built the tomb with her
longtime friend and business partner, Lana Duke, then invited 150 friends
and family members to a party there. She described the afternoon event -
with tables of food, a band, and guided tours of the sunset-beige tomb - as
a celebration of life's last stage.


''We call it our last double,'' Fertel said, referring to a traditional
style of housing in New Orleans with two separate living areas contained in
a house. ''We each have a side and plenty of room for our families.''


Metairie, a nondenominational cemetery built on what was once a race track,
dates to 1872. Visitors are provided with tape-recorded tours that point
out
the final resting places of former governors, generals, and statesmen. Many
are big tombs.


''I don't think any place in the world builds tombs like this,'' said
Richard Briede, vice president of Stewart Enterprises Inc., the owner and
operator of the cemetery. ''Not on the scale or in the number we do.''


A 32-by-32-foot plot for a tomb at Metairie costs $125,000; a one-time
maintenance fee runs about $2,000.


Fertel would not reveal what she paid for her tomb, but cemetery architect
Gil Bonnaffons Jr. said the structure probably cost about $500,000,
including the lot and design fees.


Metairie does not allow marble construction. It doesn't stand up well,
Bonnaffons said. Granite is preferred.


Al Copeland, founder of the Popeye's Fried Chicken chain, is completing a
mausoleum that will hold 14 caskets. Built on a raised platform with four
square fluted columns in front and a bronze double door, it could run about
$600,000, Bonnaffons said.


Above-ground burials are fashionable around New Orleans. The tradition,
dating to 1789 when St. Louis No. 1 Cemetery was established, springs from
the city's European roots, not a response to flooding or the city's
below-sea-level setting and swampy ground.


Tombs are grouped in small neighborhoods, with stone and cement buildings
on
winding streets.


The ''cities of the dead'' are a popular attraction, drawing thousands of
tourists to look at the crumbling bricks and fallen inscriptions. The lure
of Metairie Cemetery is more artistic.


Statues of mourning angels and grieving children line the streets. The
architecture includes tombs with beautiful stained-glass windows, modeled
after churches, pyramids, Roman shrines, and Islamic palaces.


The distinctive art recently led to a scheme to steal urns, statues, and
other artifacts and sell them to collectors. A prominent antiques dealer
and
four others received jail time for the venture.


Tombs are sometimes resold, Briede said. Perhaps the best-known case
occurred when the ornate tomb of a madam, Josie Arlington, was sold and
Arlington's remains were moved to a secret location. But visitors still
flock to see the statue of a woman with an arm beckoning to the tomb's
door.


Tombs in Louisiana are also reused.


State law allows the remains to be removed from the casket a year and a day
after the death. They then can be deposited in a special cache in the tomb,
the old coffin discarded and the space reused.


''We have generations of families interred in even the small tombs,''
Briede
said. ''They're really practical. And they're a good investment.''


This story ran on page A03 of the Boston Globe on 7/7/2000.
© Copyright 2000 Globe Newspaper Company.





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________


Message d01af14b6iQ-3842-764+00.htm, number 312, was posted on Sat Jul 8 at 12:44:44
in reply to cf5687ebCZt-3837-35+00.htm

Re^2: Casket distribution

Mike
mike73coug@yahoo.com


Hi Betty, just a few comments on your post

I appreciate your frustration, but having been an independent service and merchandise dealer for many years in the cattle industry (before my current positon as a church business manager), most markets are driven by a complex mix of tradition and consumer attitude, and ya just have to fit in as best you can.  The operative "tradition" here is that most suppliers choose to distribue through liscened service providers, and it should be consumer demand rather than regulatory pressure that changes that.  Certainly the casket store pioneers are helping to "open things up".  But, my hunch is that most consumers would ultimately prefer to be able to buy a competitively priced compleat package of merchandise and service from one convenient source, rather than having to run around town putting all the pieces together, especially at the difficult time of a death.

[And as for hair dyes, Vets, etc. well, the reason might be consumer saftey. That fails with boxes.]
Actually no.  With non-percription or unregulated cosmetics, the same types of products, under different brand names, are available through retail outlets.  It is just a marketing choice of the supplier.  If I felt a certain brand or generic product met my needs, I went to a retailer.  If I prefered a certain brand or formulation, I could procure it from a liscened professional, and yes, it usually was more expensive, but I knew what I was getting.  In either case, I had a choice so as a consumer I never felt imposed upon.  And, I had the option of "shopping the professionals."  Just like funeral homes, priceing would vary between practicioners.  Also, the product would often be less expensive if it were purchased in conjunction with a service.  My point being that the practices that some find so appaling in the funeral industry are common in many others.  My sense of fairness says that IF there is to be a "regulatory shift" it should apply to commerce in general and not just single out the funeral homes.  For the same reason, I believe the relavent portions of the FTC rules should also equally apply to cemetaries and casket stores.

[And I'm not really up on all the auto dealers, but I think if I came up with enough cash, I could buy an area, to set up shop. So it isn't so errr- AS estricted to sell cars as it is to sell what some call a pc of furniture (know what I mean?)]
This is exactly my point.  If you "came up with enough cash" you could open a liscensed funeral establishment - then you could both buy the products you wanted to retail, and offer the consumer an affordable funeral!  You have all kinds of options: you can meet the requirements to obtain a professional liscense, hire liscensed funeral directors to work for you, or contract with a liscensed establishment to provide professional services.  In fact, I would guess it would be far easier and less restricted to open a funeral home in a give area then it would be to gain a dealer franchise from an automobile, industrial or farm equipment manufacturer.


Here in the Tri-Cities (metro area population, 150,000) in SE Washington State there is a new firm that, in my humble estimation, is the wave of the future.  A liscensed funeral director has opened The Casket Shop.  Rather than a selection room hidden in the back, hehind the arrangements room, that you only get to see if you are makeing "at need" or "pre-need" funeral arrangements, this firm offers an upfront, comfortable retail athmosphere that consumers are familiar and comfortable with.  One can window shop from the sidewalk, or return multiple times, to look at new selections, browse, become familiar and comfortable with a product one doesn't deal with frequently.  In addition to a selection of over 20 units, with several attractive wood venier, cloth covered and light gague steel units priced under $1,000, they have the catalogs available in the show room so one has access to a very broad selection range. And, yes, because they are a liscensed establishment, they offer the major brands (primarily Aurora now).  They also, of course have urns, memeoral mementos and markers.  BUT, they also offer compleate funeral service and cremation packages.  He has a herese and limousine, facilities available for preparation, and they use your home or church for visitations and the service.  His casket prices seem lower or very competitive than those I've seen on casket store web sites, and his service packages are the least cost in our area.  The critique from the standard funeral provider might be that he doesn't offer the traditional elegant "Funeral Home and Chapel".  But, my church is very elegant, so why should I pay for that overhead when I already pay for the church facilities through my contribution?

The big thing is that he offers compleate and flexible services and quality merchandise at an affordable price from one conveninet source, which not all funeral homes do and which casket stores can't.  I think this will be the wave of the future that best meets consumer needs.  That's my "2 cents worth", anyways.


Message d01af14b6iQ-3842-792+00.htm, number 313, was posted on Sat Jul 8 at 13:11:59
in reply to cf568687CZt-3842-690+00.htm

Re^2: Prices To Die For!

Mike
mike73coug@yahoo.com


That was an interesting article.  While it's not how I would spend my funeral dollar, it seems somewhat refreshing to see a move back to individual expression and personalized memorialization, rather than the "forced homoginization" of acres of tree-less, art-less flat markers that were common when the "memoral park" concept began to replace municipal and church cemetaries a few decades ago.

When I lived in Colombia, South America a few years ago, I noticed that in the villages, many of which are over 300 years old, the municipal cemetary didn't seem very large, and there weren't any graves dateting back very far.  They usually had Mausoleums rather than ground burial.  It was explained to me that families didn't buy they cryp, but rather leased it for a period of time (10, 20 or 30 years).  Unless there was some reason for a delay or the remains needed to be shipped, embalming was uncommon and burial usually occured within 24 hours of death.  When the lease expired, the remaining skeleton was "disassembled" and placed in a much smaller box than the traditional full body casket.  This new casket was placed in a niche in the basement of the Church where the person was baptised, and would be permanent resting place.  Wood caskets are predominant in Colombia and the old casket would be burned at the cemetary.

I've read of a varitation of this in some asian countries, where land use density precluded expansive cemetaries, but some Christian families did not prefer direct cremation.  A traditinal burial would occur, and after a period of years, the remains would be disintered and cremated then, to make space for new burials.  The cremated remains would be placed in a columbarian at the cemetary.


Message cf24877bImK-3842-814-00.htm, number 314, was posted on Sat Jul 8 at 13:34:19
Consumer Deception In the Funeral Industry...

ValDan
oldeworldcasket@aol.com


A very interesting document - just a few excerpts:


"There are still complaints, however, of funeral homes continuing to charge what is now an illegal fee. One consumer recently called Consumer Affairs to ask if it were legal for Porta-Coeli funeral home in the Bronx to charge a $250 handling fee for a casket he had purchased somewhere else. Porta-Coeli also told him he would have to obtain liability insurance in case any funeral home employees were injured while handling the casket. A follow up call by a DCA inspector found the same result and Porta-Coeli was issued a deceptive trade practice violation."

"In yet another complaint, a Brooklyn woman had ordered a coffin for her father from Direct Casket. She said as soon as she told the funeral director that she would not be purchasing a casket, the tone of the conversation changed. First, the consumer said, the funeral director tried to talk her out of using Direct Casket, claiming their products are inferior. Then, the day before the funeral, the viewing was moved from 12 noon to 6 p.m. The funeral home claimed the casket arrived late and, therefore, the body was not yet ready for display. However, according to the consumer, the funeral home confirmed the day before that the casket had been delivered. And Direct Casket furnished a receipt showing the casket had been delivered two days before the scheduled viewing."

"And it is also important to note that SCI now has an even stronger interest in selling caskets - they now own Marsellus, which industry insiders describe as the Rolls Royce of caskets by industry insiders. Therefore, they are making an even larger profit for every Marsellus casket they can persuade the bereaved to purchase."

The entire document may be viewed at the following URL:

www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dca/html/dcafuneralreport.html


Message cf577cccLmM-3842-1028+00.htm, number 315, was posted on Sat Jul 8 at 17:08:41
in reply to d01af14b6iQ-3842-764+00.htm

Re^3: Casket distribution

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


Well Mike: Let me add a few corrections to your post. If you follow any casket store news, you will find that MOST casket stores can secure any brand name of caskets. They go through a broker.

And while some may not want to "shop" at that time, more and more are. There will always be those however, who think like your post. It is whatever they are most comfortable with, and are willing or able to afford, and there is nothing wrong in that either.

As for your seeing more casket stores owned by funeral directors, yep - that's happening too. That is why the shopper should always know who owns the establishment, as funeral homes that are NOT owned by large corp. are most always less expensive. As is the casket store's prices on caskets - that is not a licensed funeral director, that owner is more willing to share ways to save on other areas of the funeral also.



Message 3fd3b998zF7-3844-735-00.htm, number 316, was posted on Mon Jul 10 at 12:15:08
showroom closing

PAUL
casktstore@aol.com


Hello everyone,
This is Paul at The Casket Store in Fairhaven Massachusetts. We have been experiencing bad times in our area regarding sales to local customers. We have reviewed some current GPL's from local funeral homes and have discovered that they have lowered their casket prices to our level but have raised other service charges to offset the costs. We have not had a local sale since March, our few sales that we do have are from out of town.
Our new strategy will be to liquidate our existing inventory and operate out of a mobile sales office setting where we will visit with customers and they will be able to pre-plan or purchase from a catalogue or internet then we will deliver the casket when needed.
We need to liquidate our inventory of CSI caskets and urns along with many other items. If anyone is interested in purchasing or viewing inventory please email pmello1023@aol.com or call 508-996-8513.
I am able to fax inventory list and email pictures.

Message cf248712ImK-3844-929-00.htm, number 317, was posted on Mon Jul 10 at 15:28:52
What Happened to CCUSA?

ValDan
oldeworldcasket@aol.com


Does anyone have any information as to what is going on with Consumer Casket USA?  Are they still in business, etc?

Message 98a3c9bc1bg-3844-1317+00.htm, number 318, was posted on Mon Jul 10 at 21:56:58
in reply to 3fd3b998zF7-3844-735-00.htm

Re: showroom closing

ChuckG
cgalvin0970@my-deja.com


On Mon Jul 10, PAUL wrote
-------------------------
>Hello everyone,
>This is Paul at The Casket Store in Fairhaven Massachusetts......We have reviewed some current GPL's from local funeral homes and have discovered that they have lowered their casket prices to our level but have raised other service charges to offset the costs.

  I own and operate a funeral home in Eastern Mass., not too far from you.
  This shift in charges is nothing new, particularly with New England funeral homes, where many "snow birds" are shipped back for burial in caskets sold by funeral homes in states like Florida and Arizona.  We were losing casket sales to Sunbelt state funeral homes for decades before anyone even thought of opening casket stores.
  When I took over operation of my firm back in 1990, one of the first changes that I instituted was to begin a shift of principal profit generation from my casket and vault sales, to my services and facilities charges.  Thus insuring that even casketed ship-ins were profitable for me.  So now, 10 years later, the profit I earn on an 18Ga. steel casket represents only about 6% of a total average "traditional funeral" bill, which is nowhere near the 3X-5X mark-ups claimed by some retailers.  And, there are at least 5 other firms within just a few miles of mine who have been making the same changes over the past few years.  So chances are, there were probably a few in your area before you even opened your store.
  As far as the others who shifted after you arrived, well, that's competition.  In business, when you decide to compete directly with another business or industry, you have to realize that they will most likely turn around and compete back.  For the life of me, I will never understand why retailers are so surprised when funeral homes react like any other business and take measures to protect their market share.
  My firm has survived a depression, two world wars, a couple of stock market crashes, several hurricanes, and a tornado.  And after nearly a century, we are still in business and thriving!  A little competition keeps things interesting.  I am sorry to see you leave.

ChuckG


Message cf568751CZt-3845-600+00.htm, number 319, was posted on Tue Jul 11 at 10:01:30
in reply to 98a3c9bc1bg-3844-1317+00.htm

Re^2: showroom closing

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


First - yes C/C is out of business. Didn't hear reasons why......
Second, Paul, that way of doing biz is not bad - in fact it will
lower your overhead considerably. (Being out of a three ring binder - great- I "shopped" for my own funeral at 13 area funeral homes prior to opening, and only three showed me a showroom, all the rest were three ring binders)But if you can afford to warehouse your product" and sell like you mentioned, you stand to be
making more. Sorry to hear of slow sales. That is why we have more
than one division. And the internet sales do help. (As for "snow
birds" this week is the third time in recent months where we have
just sold the grave liner to a family (repeat biz from last death)
living in Fl. and burial is in Holy Cross (Cath. cem)in Oh. so we
not only have that added income from that sale, but do you know how
the Cath/cem. work? The graveliner is "unloaded" near the open hole
and then the cem. installs it. So - it is easy money, no handle and
still saving the family several dollars. Win/win (I think every c.s.
should branch out and handle more than just caskets/urns.)
We are going to "sponsor" a sale soon: "Buy your caskets at A Team
Master's and get the grave liner free!" (installation $250.00 tent if needed extra) Assure one needs to do something to have them hear about you and a reason to step out of their comfort zone too. It is a fact,
funeral homes have the inside lane when the family is making arrangements. If your product is saving them just $65.00 they won't switch, but if you can make it eaiser, better and still more affordable, you will be where they come. Competition is what makes it - I have had some people tell me that they just love to save money, and are proud of the fact that they can do this at a time like this (too). I hope you hang in there and market like crazy - I bet they don't know about you more than the closeness in price. People also like to have someone OUTSIDE the funeral home to turn to. Chuck is right too, history is on his side - but if you offer a huge reason for them to see you, they will.

Message 3fd3bb32zF7-3846-949+00.htm, number 320, was posted on Wed Jul 12 at 15:49:29
in reply to 98a3c9bc1bg-3844-1317+00.htm

Re^2: showroom closing

PAUL
casktstore@aol.com


On Mon Jul 10, ChuckG wrote
---------------------------
>On Mon Jul 10, PAUL wrote
>-------------------------
>>Hello everyone,
>>This is Paul at The Casket Store in Fairhaven Massachusetts......We have reviewed some current GPL's from local funeral homes and have discovered that they have lowered their casket prices to our level but have raised other service charges to offset the costs.

>   I own and operate a funeral home in Eastern Mass., not too far from you.
>   This shift in charges is nothing new, particularly with New England funeral homes, where many "snow birds" are shipped back for burial in caskets sold by funeral homes in states like Florida and Arizona.  We were losing casket sales to Sunbelt state funeral homes for decades before anyone even thought of opening casket stores.
>   When I took over operation of my firm back in 1990, one of the first changes that I instituted was to begin a shift of principal profit generation from my casket and vault sales, to my services and facilities charges.  Thus insuring that even casketed ship-ins were profitable for me.  So now, 10 years later, the profit I earn on an 18Ga. steel casket represents only about 6% of a total average "traditional funeral" bill, which is nowhere near the 3X-5X mark-ups claimed by some retailers.  And, there are at least 5 other firms within just a few miles of mine who have been making the same changes over the past few years.  So chances are, there were probably a few in your area before you even opened your store.
>   As far as the others who shifted after you arrived, well, that's competition.  In business, when you decide to compete directly with another business or industry, you have to realize that they will most likely turn around and compete back.  For the life of me, I will never understand why retailers are so surprised when funeral homes react like any other business and take measures to protect their market share.
>   My firm has survived a depression, two world wars, a couple of stock market crashes, several hurricanes, and a tornado.  And after nearly a century, we are still in business and thriving!  A little competition keeps things interesting.  I am sorry to see you leave.

>ChuckG

>Paul
Hello ChuckG
I would like to clear a few things up regarding your statements.
First of all we are not closing our operation we are streamlining our operation by cutting our overhead and operating as a web-based/in-home sales business, we will now be able to devote more dollars to advertising our "true" wholesale prices to the public. The Casket Store theme is still alive because we are in business to offer the public quality products at a price so low, even a funeral home would find attractive. So keep yours eyes open for our ads. Just like your business had to adapt and survive during changing times so to will our business.
Regarding local funeral homes lowering their prices, we had expected this would happen and we do understand their fight for survival. This response is acceptable as long as there is no collusive activity going on between local homes. We could have pushed some of our potential customers to file a number of complaints with the FTC regarding violations of the Funeral Rule, but we did not want to ad undue stress to grieving families. One pertains to a New Bedford funeral home's director telling a customer that "if you try to bring a casket here from The Casket Store then you can make your arrangements at another funeral home" this poor women was bullied out of saving her family money because she wasn't about to change homes seeing this was the home that her family always uses. Pretty sad huh.
Hope to meet you someday, that's if I haven't already.


Message c7ae96baNCw-3847-829-00.htm, number 321, was posted on Thu Jul 13 at 13:49:52
Alabama Funerals

Turbo5
dsel196y@mindspring.com


Gentlemen,

The funeral saga continues in Alabama.  The court which issued a statement in March 1999 that, "use of a casket provided by the family of the deceased does not create an oversale," this concerning Brown Service Funeral Policies has now changed its oppinion, stating, "this most recent order provides that a casket purchased by the family from a third party likewise creates an oversale,", March 2000.

What do you think guys?  How do you think this fits in with the FTC ruling of 1984 and 1994?

Turbo5


Message cdbcc6b2KyG-3848-470-00.htm, number 322, was posted on Fri Jul 14 at 07:49:39
Belly Up Casket Stores Confused

James Johnston
jj@hotmail.com


So many casket stores open up and think they will get rich overnight, when they don't, they go belly up.  They really think the funeral industry will sit back & keep the same old prices while retailers clean up, NOT!

Message ac904314LVj-3848-573-00.htm, number 323, was posted on Fri Jul 14 at 09:33:15
Anyone making caskets here?

Fred Ward
fward@masshistology.com


Do any members manufacture their caskets or are all of you just retailers?  I am looking for suppliers of casket materials (wood, interiors, bedding, handles, etc) to start a hardwood casket manufacturing company for retail.  Thanks.  Fred

Message cf577c51LmM-3848-655-00.htm, number 324, was posted on Fri Jul 14 at 10:56:22
Reminder

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


Lies and other tasteless pointed posts WILL be deleted. I won't go thru and edit a post if the small part of it presents a valid idea -deleted instead due to the large amount of garbage.
(Example:) James Johnston
jj@hotmail.com

So many casket stores open up and think they will get rich overnight, when they don't, they go belly up.  They really think the funeral industry will sit back & keep the same old prices while retailers clean up, NOT (clipped)

While free speech is grand, the poster isn't being honest with his email, ideas are not explained as to where he obtained the false information AND he continued with other garbage (even in the title). So the whole post was zapped (and will continue to be if it does not conform to the rules of the page posted at the top.

Here IS a good article with data showing where the ideas come from, about e-retailers going belly up: www.plumbingmart.com/longevitycounts.html Retail is retail, no matter what you are selling, you need more than just product. However, that said, the lie above about getting rich overnight shows little knowledge what it takes to open any business. And as far as prices go, as long as the FTC rules are followed, no one has any problem with any competition. The idea of "sit back and keep old prices" well, if that is what is published on the casket price list, that is what they need to go with.


Message d01af2ae6iQ-3848-950+00.htm, number 325, was posted on Fri Jul 14 at 15:49:44
in reply to ac904314LVj-3848-573-00.htm

Re: Anyone making caskets here?

Mike
mike73coug@yahoo.com


On Fri Jul 14, Fred Ward wrote
------------------------------
>Do any members manufacture their caskets or are all of you just retailers?  I am looking for suppliers of casket materials (wood, interiors, bedding, handles, etc) to start a hardwood casket manufacturing company for retail.  Thanks.  Fred

Fred, check out this link for the information you are looking for
www.cfsaa.org/BasicInformationCFSAA/Default.htm


Message cdbcc0bcKyG-3849-52+00.htm, number 326, was posted on Sat Jul 15 at 00:51:44
in reply to cf577c51LmM-3848-655-00.htm

Re: Listen Bozo

James Johnston
jj@hotmail.com


"And as far as prices go, as long as the FTC rules are followed, no one has any problem with any competition. The idea of "sit back and keep old prices" well, if that is what is published on the casket price list, that is what they need to go with"

Can't a guy have a "will beat any price by 20 percent policy" HURTS HUH?


Message cdbcc817KyG-3849-1353-00.htm, number 327, was posted on Sat Jul 15 at 22:33:30
Casket Retailers Cry

James Johnston
jj@hotmail.com


Casket sellers cry when they find out a price list is not carved in stone. When you buy a car some will pay full sticker but smart ones dicker.  The same is true on a casket.

Dont bank your business on a casket price list and dont get mad when faced with competition!


Message cf56875dLmM-3849-1357-00.htm, number 328, was posted on Sat Jul 15 at 22:38:48
Combined forces & in the mailbag

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


In the mailbag:
"We own a burial vault company and we have recently stoped selling our merchandise and services to the local funeral homes and have started working with a casket store in  (snipped). I'm sick of seeing the public being riped off by a bunch of smooth suit salesmen who think nothing of taking a grieving widow for all she is worth, we now offer the public caskets, burial vaults, tent set-ups, and monuments. When one of the
 funeral homes in  our area first learned of what we were doing he called  me up and told me that he would compete with me, but that was before he knew that I was going to also advertise caskets. We are now selling our caskets with only a small mark up, our vaults are sold for the same price that the funeral homes are purchasing them from our competition ( WELL known brand x), our tents are free with the purchase of any vault, and even the local monument company has sent some of our customers back to us because they would not match our price. I would be very interested in working with other casket stores "providing that the numbers made cents enough to move a satelite vault company into their erea" OR   find an investor that would be willing to build a small funeral home "with no chapel" in this area, and work directly with us, with my company holding the controlling intrest. They only need to maintain it and pay salaries for a funeral director for one year, I will use my own employees for manual labor and there is a licensed embalmer who has his own  building that embalms for funeral homes. To give you an idea of the size of our area, there are 15 funeral homes in a 20 mile area, and many many more out side.

 If you are interested you can reach me at: (snipped - NCRA members, please email webmaster to get further details and responses)(end copy)
The established casket stores know how this person feels and why. The strength in numbers
from our NCRA org. is important, also perhaps  are partnerships with "like" sales and this opportunity might be something well worth looking into. (vaults, monuments, tents, etc.)
And as others see the NCRA as a strong force and offer helping hands such as above, you know we are doing the right thing!
Also, we welcome more new members this month (Co. & Fl)
I am assembling an email to go out shortly, to members. Have a nice week end, Rob
ps. Also heard "first call" pick ups for funeral homes are a new service some retailers are adding/ doing (pays quite well, check requirements in your state, most no license needed) so there are many items and revenues of income one might consider.

           


Message d01af1a46iQ-3850-658+00.htm, number 329, was posted on Sun Jul 16 at 10:58:00
in reply to cdbcc817KyG-3849-1353-00.htm

Re: Casket Retailers Cry

Mike
mike73coug@yahoo.com


On Sat Jul 15, James Johnston wrote
-----------------------------------
>Casket sellers cry when they find out a price list is not carved in stone. When you buy a car some will pay full sticker but smart ones dicker.  The same is true on a casket.

>Dont bank your business on a casket price list and dont get mad when faced with competition!

Ah, I've been wanting to comment on this very topic.  I've seen several posts from retailers complaining about a funeral home spot matching the store price on a casket.  I can appreciate their frustration from when I was in sales.  For many years I provided both techinical services and biolgical products to the cattle industry (frozen semen for artificial insemination), and the market was full of independent retailers who sold just the product, with no service.  Now, appreciate my frustration with being called to provide technical services with a product purchased from someone else.  Charging a higher service fee wasn't often possible in a very competitive market (and not allowed for funeral directors).  The issue was simple - my product prices were always competitive with the current market and I just wouldn't be undersold, plain and simple.  A smaller margin was always better than no margin.

"We Won't Be Undersold" is now a very common philosophy in comerce, and the DCI retailers can't expect to be insulated from the market they choose to operate in.  IF funeral homes were to be required to have fixed casket prices, then retailers should also (which would mean bringing them under the Funeral Rule, which would be good in any event).


Message cf577c46CZt-3850-1291+00.htm, number 330, was posted on Sun Jul 16 at 21:32:06
in reply to d01af1a46iQ-3850-658+00.htm

welcome to combat warriors??(legal rights)

savcash
a-team@stratos.net


I think this is the same as saying: sales are a war zone. No Thanks
I don't want to put an already grieving family thru this. PEOPLE
only "dicker" if they really don't need the items/service. You
can't neg/the utility/gas/rent, etc. If you could care less if you
really get the "goods" then it MIGHT be open to negotiation. It sounds
like a used carsales approach at the worst possible time. It also
sounds very illegal. It is like saying you have TWO price sheets,
one for those that will pay (first class rates)w/o question.
second for those that (you wish to APPEAR to treat first class)are
mentioning the c.s. and lower price competition.
The best way to overcome any objection is to cover it prior to it
coming up. Sure, I can say "WE guar/our price to be lower that
any competition's." And then if the f/h lowers their price, I still
have another shot at it......but no thanks, I will give them my
best price up front - they deserve to be treated with respect at
a time like this. And the FTC needs to answer this question for those
that appear to think it is okay to "switch" from the c.s. price sheet-
as it is not (any more than it is okay to have 2 price sheets)
See example below from price.bus.okstate.edu/archive/992/Econ5113/Outlines/Chap11/Chap11.htm

(copy in part)
      C.Pricing Strategies in Markets with Intense Price Competition
            1.Price Matching
                 a.A price-matching strategy entails an offer to meet any competitors price.
                 b.Price matching and Bertrand oligopoly
                      i.One-shot games - price matching keeps rivals from getting an
                        edge.
                      ii.Repeated games
                           a.an industry which adopts the policy can use it to implement
                             monopoly pricing and avoid price competition.
                                i.promise to match price reduces individual firm
                                  incentive to cut price.
                 c.Advantage of policy - customers expend resources tracking prices - firms
                   do not have to monitor rivals.
            2.Inside Business 11-2: Beat-or-Pay Strategies
                 a.Promise to pay $X if cannot beat a competitor's price given
                      i.the opportunity to beat the offer
                      ii.proof of purchase at a lower price
                 b.Two advantages
                      i.attracts customers
                      ii.discourages rivals from starting a price war.
(end copy) It would work for those in it for the short term, those
that want the "one-time" sale or those that don't care about the
reputation that they get. No thanks, not for the "cream of the crop"
companies that understand, these people are going thru enough at this
time, and the firm you are doing biz with should be first class, not any of the above.
----And if a funeral home would EVEN think about using this tatic, there are rules (check your state, and retailers, if a f.h. in your area commits to this, know your rights, and take action!!) (You might even print out your state's rules and post it in your shop, or send it to the local funeral home prior to any "meeting the price" so they know that they would have to comply, do all of the added the paperwork, inform all their customers(not just those smart about c.s. & neg), etc, etc.
www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dca/html/salesrule.html (copied in part)

Section 9. Part 7, Subchapter A, Chapter 5 of Title 6 of the Rules of the City of New York is
amended by repealing §5-105 and §5-106, by inserting new sections §5-102 and §5-103 to read
as follows and by amending current §5-102, §5-103 and §5-104 to read as follows:

§5-102 Lowest Priced Guaranteed Claims. An advertiser may not use the terms "lowest prices,"
"guaranteed lowest prices," "prices lower than anyone else," or similar terms, when generally
referring to all prices or the prices of specific items, unless the retailer has systematically monitored
and continues to monitor in the New York City trading area competitive prices on every such item to
which the claim refers and can substantiate such claims.

§5-103 Price Matching or Price Beating Claims. An advertiser may not use terms such as "we
will meet your best price" or "we won't be undersold" or similar terms which imply that the advertiser
will beat or match a competitor's price unless:

(a) the advertiser clearly and conspicuously discloses its price matching policy and any limitations;
and

(b) such policy does not require the taking of any action which places an unreasonable burden on
consumers; and

(c) the advertiser makes no claim that is subject to the provisions of §5-102 of this part.

§[5-102]5-104 Adequacy of Disclosures. (a) All disclosures and words of limitation or
qualification required by this part or §5-09 of these rules shall be [written or printed in letters at least
one third as high and one third as broad as the largest words or numbers appearing in the
advertisement which relate to or describe the reduction, discount or savings, but in no event less than
ten point type.] made clearly and conspicuously. An advertiser complies with this requirement only
by either:

(i) using written or printed letters that are at least one third as large as the largest sized letters or
numbers appearing in the advertisement which describe the reduction, discount or savings, but in no
event in smaller than 10 point type, and by using an asterisk or other similar identifying mark to refer
a consumer to the place in the advertisement where the required disclosures and words of limitation
or qualification are placed in the advertisement; or

(ii) placing the required disclosures and words of limitation or qualification in 10 point type
immediately adjacent to the place in the advertisement where the reduction, discount or savings claim
to which it relates appears in the advertisement.

§[5-103]5-105 Records Required. (a) Each person who advertises or represents the existence of
a discount, reduction or savings shall for [three]six months maintain records demonstrating
compliance with this part at his principal place of business within the City of New York or at a
location where such records are normally maintained by such person.

Example: An advertiser who advertises "20 percent off brand X cameras" must maintain records
demonstrating that the reduction is from its[the] bona fide selling price. If the cameras were last sold
at such lower price eleven months ago, the advertiser must retain the records indicating the earlier
price. These records must be kept for a period of [three]six months after the sale is over.

(b) Where the Commissioner of Consumer Affairs [or her delegate] requests a person to produce by
mail information or records to demonstrate compliance with this part, and the information, or original,
carbon, photographic or electrostatic copies of the records are available in the company's files, the
person shall mail a copy of such information to the person requesting it within seven business days
after receipt of the request unless such time period is extended [by the Chief of the Law Enforcement
Division]. Where the information is available to the person but not in his or her possession, or where
the record must be reconstructed (e.g., where they have been stored in the memory bank of a
computer), the person shall mail a copy of such information to the person requesting it within a
reasonable period of time, not to exceed [sixty]thirty [business] days, after receipt of the request
unless such time period is extended[ by the Chief of the Law Enforcement Division]. In lieu of mailing
requested information or records to the Commissioner, a person may grant access to the files for
purpose of examination and to copy documentary evidence by advising the Commissioner in writing
within 5 business days after receipt of the request that such access will be granted provided the
information or records are kept in New York City.

[(c) No action shall be maintained by the Commissioner under Administrative Code, §20-703(c)
merely for failure to maintain or produce records required by this section. However, all other
penalties provided by §20-703 shall apply.]

§[5-104]5-106 [Regulations] Rule Sections 5-06 and 5-12 not Affected. Nothing in this part
repeals or modifies §§5-06 and 5-12 or any portion thereof. In the event of any inconsistency, the
advertiser [should]shall comply with the requirements of §§5-06 or 5-12, as the case may be.

Statement of Basis and Purpose: Part 7, the "Consumer Protection Law" Subchapter A, of
Chapter 5, Title 6 of the Rules of the City of New York defines and specifies what price savings and
price comparison claims are prohibited as unfair trade practices in advertising and how price savings
and price comparison claims may be properly advertised. Part 7 was originally promulgated on
January 31, 1972 and last amended on August 3, 1972.

Experience, however, has shown that understanding, compliance, and enforcement of the rule can be
substantially improved if key terms and requirements are more clearly and plainly stated. These
amendments to Part 7 would clarify the meaning of key definitions and require advertisers to clearly
disclose the specific time period which is the basis for establishing the reference price to which
savings claims are compared; the meaning of the reference price being used as a basis for
comparison, such as whether it refers to one at which actual sales were made or only a price at
which items were offered for sale; and the duration of a sale and how it must be calculated and
identified. The amendments also clarify permissible price comparison claims that can be made in
reference to competitors' or other advertisers' prices; specify the requirements to be satisfied by
retailers who advertise price beating or price guarantee claims; and requires advertisers to
substantiate all price savings and price comparison claims.

The purpose of these amendments is to ensure that advertisers clearly understand what price savings
and comparison claims may be made without deceiving consumers; that consumers clearly
understand the meaning of advertised savings and comparative pricing claims; and that all advertisers
compete on a level playing field.


Message cc60183cPRl-3851-6+00.htm, number 331, was posted on Mon Jul 17 at 00:07:57
in reply to d01af1a46iQ-3850-658+00.htm

Re^2: Casket Retailers Cry

De'Lores P. Arline
delarl@usa.net


This diatribe would probably be warranted if it were legal. Supposition and assumptions should be held at bay until one is familiar with the laws regarding this industry.

"Moreover, you cannot alter your prices based upon the particular selections of each customer. Such a practice also would defeat the purpose of the Rule to give people accurate, itemized price information that affords them the opportunity to select the arrangements they want."

Quoted from "Complying With The Funeral Rule" a business guide produced by the Federal Trade Commission, August, 1995 -- page 30, "What Consumers Cannot Be Required to Purchase".

It would seem that if the FD had the best interest of the consumer, there would be no need to lower their casket prices for any reason. Wouldn't/shouldn't the first price be the best offer? This practice would impress upon me that I would be taken advantage of if I had no knowledge of other casket sources.



On Sun Jul 16, Mike wrote
-------------------------
>On Sat Jul 15, James Johnston wrote
>-----------------------------------
>>Casket sellers cry when they find out a price list is not carved in stone. When you buy a car some will pay full sticker but smart ones dicker.  The same is true on a casket.

>>Dont bank your business on a casket price list and dont get mad when faced with competition!

>Ah, I've been wanting to comment on this very topic.  I've seen several posts from retailers complaining about a funeral home spot matching the store price on a casket.  I can appreciate their frustration from when I was in sales.  For many years I provided both techinical services and biolgical products to the cattle industry (frozen semen for artificial insemination), and the market was full of independent retailers who sold just the product, with no service.  Now, appreciate my frustration with being called to provide technical services with a product purchased from someone else.  Charging a higher service fee wasn't often possible in a very competitive market (and not allowed for funeral directors).  The issue was simple - my product prices were always competitive with the current market and I just wouldn't be undersold, plain and simple.  A smaller margin was always better than no margin.

>"We Won't Be Undersold" is now a very common philosophy in comerce, and the DCI retailers can't expect to be insulated from the market they choose to operate in.  IF funeral homes were to be required to have fixed casket prices, then retailers should also (which would mean bringing them under the Funeral Rule, which would be good in any event).


Message d01af21c6iQ-3851-1014+00.htm, number 332, was posted on Mon Jul 17 at 16:54:22
in reply to d01af1a46iQ-3850-658+00.htm

Re^2: Casket Retailers Cry

Mike
mike73coug@yahoo.com


My, my, I didn't expect such an uproar.  "Sales war zones" and "dickering" seem to be overstatements.  My opnion is reflected in the following scenerio: I were making funeral arrangements, and I had selected a funeral home I really wanted to do business with, because of whatever (reputation, a previous excellent experience with them, a personal repore with the funeral director, their fees reflected good value for the services I wanted, etc.) but I thought their merchandise prices a bit high for the market, and I commented that a type of casket I liked was available for a certain price; and, the director offerd to work with me on the casket price so I would have the convenience of compleating all the arrangements from one source, at a competitive price.  I, personally, feel he or she are being helpful to the consumer in a difficult time.  If it is/or were to become not permissible for the funeral director to work with a family on price issues, I pose the following scnerio: As the business manager for a 2800 family church, I know that many funeral homes moderate prices for familes with budget difficulties - a typical example is when a family wishes to ship the deceased back to Mexico for burial, which is expensive in and of itself, or if there have been simultaneous multiple deaths in a family due to a fire or accident.  It would seem a shame to see them have to say "We're sorry, we use to moderate our prices in these tragic circumstances, but we are forbidden now to charge a penny less than what is printed."  I am honestly searching for some rational explanation as to how this would be helpful to consumers.

As to the legality, I honestly don't know, I'm not in the death care industry, I'm mearly a consumer expressing what I feel would be helpful to consumers.  But, the citation by Betty was from New York, and I live in Washington.  The citation by De'Lores P. Arline would seem to me to be more applicable to service fees from the GPL than to the casket price list.  Reviewing this from the Federal Trade Commission regarding the casket price list www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/funeral/casprice.htm  I don't find a prohibition to funeral homes working with consumers on merchandise pricing.  It is understood that they may not charge more than their published prices, I sincerely don't understand why they shouldn't be able to lower their charges when a family's circumstances warrant it.



Message cf56852eLmM-3851-1181+00.htm, number 333, was posted on Mon Jul 17 at 19:42:35
in reply to d01af21c6iQ-3851-1014+00.htm

Written in concrete and confirmation

webmaster
casketstores@email.com


It is an issuse really needs an answer (if anyone questions it as it stands) Therefore I have emailed the DOJ and copied to the FTC and will let you know of the response.
To: newcase.atr@usdoj.gov
Copy:funeralrule@ftc.gov
Subject: Antitrust activity in the funeral homes
From: Rob Brown, Webmaster
National Casket Retailer's Assoc.
www.casketstores.com
RE: Please respond to this "practice" outlined at:
www.casketstores.com/cgi-bin/ceilidh.cgi/ceilidh/?C8cdbcc817KyG-3849-1353-00.htm&xroot=cdbcc817KyG-3849-1353-00.htm&n=5
Date: July   Request a Return Receipt x
Email copied to: Myra Howard, (202) 326-2047, Division of Marketing Practices, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Federal Trade Commission, Washington,  D.C. 20580, e-mail funeralrule@ftc.gov

Taken from the DOJ, Antitrust Division: ///in part///
www.usdoj.gov/atr/public/div_stats/1638.htm
-- generally, any evidence that two sellers of sim